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Shigeru Kawais are tremendous pianos, when properly prepped and cared for. The manufacturer will send a tech from the factory in Japan within a year of purchase to regulate, voice and tune it....see if that would hold for your purchase of the piano, since the original owner didn't take advantage of it. Have a tech check it out, no matter what, if you are seriously considering it. The action is unique in the world......it is called the "Millenium" and incorporates a carbon-plastic compound that makes the action lighter, faster and less affected by environmental factors. It is considered on the lighter side when properly regulated....easy to control and responsive.....that's probably why your daughter likes it. The tone is much more complex than most other Japanese pianos, because of the scale design and hammer felt used, although every piano is unique when it comes to this. If this is indeed in "like new" condition, it may be a very good price. Repeat....have a tech check it out.

I scanned through your whole post. Looks like the quoted bits are your only questions. So here goes:

1. Action - in my experience, if it's the older ABS action, it leans to the heavy side (compared to most new Steinway B's I've played); if it's the new Millenium III action, its action feel would be inline (neither heavy nor light) with most new Steinway B's I've played. If the SK-6 was bought in 2005, I'm quite confident that it has the Millenium III action.

2. Sound - it's all subjective; if you like it and your daughter likes it -- that should be all that matters. Personally, I like the sound of those Shigerus I played, I especially appreciate the dynamic range of the SK-6, but that's just my preference that does not need to be yours. (My old, lengthy write-up linked *HERE* -- 2nd post on that page .)

3. Is $35k good -- I think it's within "reasonable" range; gut feeling says your wiggle room is probably no more than 10%~15% from there; the fact that the seller is "rich" and don't need the money might eliminate that wiggle room in this case. (Shigerus are quite new, and were produced in very limited number. There just aren't that many "used" Shigerus floating around, so that leads to two consequences: it will be hard for you to find another used SK-6, and that pricing data for "used" Shigeru are just not there to make any meaningful statistics anyway.)

4. Piano not being "serviced" for 18 months -- as long as it has not been "abused" in the past 18 months, it should not hurt. Pianos are not that delicate. They can sit on airplanes or ocean liners going halfway across the globe, then ride on trucks getting transported halfway across a continent, then sit in warehouses for 1~2 years with no attention paid to them -- and survive. They just aren't that delicate. As with all used piano, get your technician to examine it if you want to get serious with this piano.

Personally, I still think a $35k piano is "overkill" for a 6 year old beginner [albeit a talented one] -- though I'd rather see this piano (or any piano, for that matter) go with a 6 year old who wants to play than to see this piano stays with some one who has quit piano.

Oh... and for the salesman issue you mentioned... don't listen to the salesman, just listen to the pianos instead.

Good luck.

The seller being rich doesn't mean he is a push over.
In fact the opposite may be true.

About the desert, there is a humidity control system called dammpchaser.
It is installed under the piano and is usually not very visible.

http://www.dampp-chaser.com/

My BB has had one since day one, even though I'm in a mild climate.
I'd certainly recommend it for whatever piano you get since you are in the desert.
They have to be installed by a tech and cost around $600 for a full system for a 7 foot pianos.
You do have to fill them with water, every week or so and change the pads every 6-months.
Some in the industry don't like them.
I think years ago they didn't have the safety features of today's units and some soundboards got cooked or something.

There are room humidifiers, which make noise and have to be refilled, and full home units that are expensive.

And before you buy any piano new or used I'd have an independent tech check out the piano.
If used pay particular attention to dryness-related problems, cracks in soundboard, separated glue joints (what others?????)

I've been to Steinway Hall.
One benefit is they have a large selection of Bs and Ds, not just one or two.
I find evaluation of new Steinways to be impossible, they are so poorly prepped - at least at every dealer I've been to.
I think most Steinways are sold to non-players.
Steinway knows this.
Why should they spend the last week or two in expensive high-skilled labor finishing a piano when it is likely to be bought by a client of an interior designer?

Steinway gets away with it because it is a status symbol and a household name.

When a smart buyer shows up and says, "Hey this piano needs voicing and regulation." they quickly tell you that is done in the home.
I'd guess 20% get it.
Sad.

Lack of prep is a MAJOR problem with most brands and most dealers.
But I believe that Steinway alone suffers from interiordesigneritis.

Next, you are talking about how light or heavy the action is.
There are a various opinions on which is more desirable:
Some like a light action, easier to play they say.
Some like a heavy action, easier to control they say.


Some say if you have a light action at home you will be unable to perform on a heavier one.
Some say a heavy action builds up the fingers better.

Here's my take.
I've owned a BB for 5 years, which has a heavier action (though my tech has improved it).
I take lessons and preform in recital on my teacher's Steinway D, which is the lightest action I've ever seen.
It takes me about 20 minutes to adjust.
So at the beginning of every lesson I miss the soft notes.
They just don't sound.
Some of this is because his piano is not well regulated, but some is because of the light action.

Now I just bought the Bluthner, which is lighter than the BB.
I am playing the new piano almost exclusively now.
At my last lesson I could have sworn my teacher got his action adjusted to be heavier. (He did not.)
It was really eerie.

Anyway, you have to decide if you want light, med or heavy.
Some flexibility is possible with a good tech.
But some brands are known for their action lightness/heaviness.
Most people have a strong preference for what they are used to but a 6 year old will adjust.

Thanks for the update, MrsSV; I was hoping to find out what you thought of the Shigeru and M&H's. Given that your daughter liked the Shigeru "as much as the evaluation piano" (which you had been waxing so lyrical about), I think it is worth pursuing. Normally I would be a little suspicious about a piano that is being sold one year after its purchase, but it sounds like there's good reason to believe that the owner is just a tad impulsive and strange, NOT that there's anything wrong with the piano itself.

So, if you and your daughter really like this Shigeru sound and feel, I think this could be a great opportunity to get an excellent piano, in virtually new condition, for a terrific price.

You commented that you weren't sure what to think of the owner's claim that he spent in the low 40s on the piano although the list price is $55K. Please keep in mind that only Steinway charges full list or close to full list, and that negotiation is standard for all other brands. That list price of $55K is a fiction. Discounts of 20-30% are typical for a high-end piano, and some here on the forum say that 40% is doable. So I find it imminently believable that he paid in the low $40s on the piano.

I would suggest bringing in a tech to look at it. I would also call the dealer or Shigeru people to see if they would be willing to send the master technician to voice and regulate the piano in your home if you were to purchase it, seeing as the original owner never bothered to do that. That would be a big plus, in my mind.

Good luck!

Bottom line?

L.A. roadtrip.

The Shigeru is a very nice piano, and I can't add anything to kenny or ax's posts.

I still feel, however, that there are many pianos out there, some costing quite a bit less money, that need to be played and evaluated.

Has the Shigeru been sitting in a dry Vegas house without proper humidity control? If so, I wonder about the soundboard and pinblock. Experts...?

MrsSV:

I was so impressed with the SK6 that I bought one myself. I refer you to the following links:

Photos of My Shigeru

Shigeru Master Piano Artisan Visit

In addition, I would give Shigeru VP Don Mannino (aka KawaiDon on Pianoworld) a call (310-223-0900). He is very friendly/helpful and I would ask him if Shigeru would be willing to send the Master Tech to your home if you bought the piano. The Kawai warranty is a 10 year FULL warranty and you should have little concern about the longevity of the instrument, but I would certainly suggest as added peace of mind you have an independent tech check it over. I serious doubt there would be any issue with the instrument including soundboard.
You can double check but I am fairly sure the action is the superb Millenium III. The Millenium III is made of a black graphite reinforced engineering polymer, whereas the earlier action appears more flesh colored and is glass fiber reinforced. Many people who play the Millenium III action feel it is perhaps the best in the industry.

Good luck

Having only posted once in this epic saga you're overdue to hear from me again. I'm not an expert on the Shigeru Kawai, having only encountered and played them once at a PTG convention, however I can address some of the questions. They are a very nice piano, and with the S.K. like the others you have been thinking about you are looking at pianos at a level where personal taste is more of an issue than some "objective" measure of quality.

Don't spend much time worrying about the action in terms of heavy or light. There is a range into which most all modern grand pianos fall, typically a downweight measured in grams from the high forties to the mid fifties. European pianos like Bechsteins and Boesendorfers are often on the lighter side in the forties, Mason & Hamlin on the higher side in the fifties. Steinway specifications run between the high forties and low fifties. And the actual weights don't tell the entire story. For example the same piano could feel light today and heavy tomorrow with a change in the way the hammers are voiced. A light action with soft hammers requiring more force to produce volume could feel operationally heavier than a heavy action with hard hammers that doesn't require as much force to produce volume. A light feeling action may make you work harder to achieve control, a heavy feeling action may give you more feeling of control but require more work to play. Pick your poision. All of the pianos you are considering have actions that are in the acceptable range.

"Did his having it for 1 1/2 years...and not really doing much servicing...hurt that piano?"
No. It's been sitting in his home untouched for almost the entire time he's owned it? What could be better than that. If you were to buy it I'd say have your tech blow out the dust and tune it. Then play it for a few months and at that point have him go over it again doing a careful regulation and voicing, or if possible get the factory tech to do the service the owner never got. Contrary to what some posters on this forum seem to think, pianos are not made out of eggshells. Well made pianos like the S.K. and others are very durable and resilient objects. Although I don't advocate abusing them, they can take a lot of abuse and still be OK.

35 is probably a pretty good price. His statement that he paid in the low 40s sounds credible. Pianos like this frequently go at a large discount from "list". If you want it I'd say press him on price. High end pianos sold privately don't usually produce a flood of potential buyers knocking the door down. He may not be getting a lot of action. His wife is mad at him for buying it? This may be something to work in your favor. She might be happier with him if he gets rid of it, and he might be happier if she's happier.

If you are getting serious, I'd have your technician give it an evaluation, but I'm inclined to say it's time to cut this "master" teacher out of the piano evaluation picture. Being at a distance and having only what you are telling me to go on, I could be off base, but it's appearing to me that this teacher is not a neutral party advising and advocating in your interest. She does work directly or indirectly for the Steinway dealership, and wittingly or unwittingly she seems to me to be an agent provocateur whose agenda is to get you to buy a Steinway from that dealership. I'm expecting her to rain on any parade that doesn't involve buying a Steinway from her dealer. I don't think that it's just a matter of a commission. I've met teachers like this. Many years ago I had a friend who was a talented pianist and teacher who was like this. Their whole self image as pianists is tied into being associated with Steinway and the Steinway myth, and they live in a personal purgatory until they are able to own the perfect Steinway themselves. And of course they think that everyone else should be the same. She probably truly believes that only a Steinway from the right place will truly serve your child's development. You might also be prepared for your personal relationship with this teacher to cool a bit if you buy a final choice upper level piano that isn't a Steinway of her recommendation. After all, doing that is a repudiation of her wisdom and core beliefs. Just remember that you'll most likely have the piano longer than the teacher.

Just in case you're wondering, I don't have anything against Steinways. I like them, I've made quite a bit of money rebuilding and selling them and I have one that I rebuilt and enjoy in my living room, but I can't stand the cultism that surrounds them and the religious devotion with which some of their adherents prostrate themselves before them.

Well, that was quite a mouthful wasn't it. I need to stop. I have to go drive out to Santa Monica to evaluate a Steinway B whose owner called me about rebuilding it.

Niles Duncan
Piano technician/rebuilder, Pasadena, CA
www.pianosource.com

I would certainly give it strong consideration.

I have a teacher like this, sort of. He thinks the only worthy replacement for his decrepit Hamburg Steinway is, guess what, a new Hamburg Steinway. One of these days I'll twist his arm hard enough to get him to play some of the wonderful pianos available today. I don't think he knows what's out there, other than concert pianos and the institutional workhorse pianos he hears his students perform on.

Niles, that was one of the best posts I've ever read here at PW. As a practically founding member, thank you.

Thank you, gryphon. I rather enjoyed writing it.

Niles Duncan
Piano technician/rebuilder, Pasadena, CA
www.pianosource.com

These posts have been extremely helpful. Niles I read yours in it's entirety to MrV. Thanks to each of you for taking time to post.
With great appreciation,
MrsSV

FWIW, please add my kudos to gryphon's. Well done, from somebody who knows what he is talking about.

MRSSV - I'm from Vegas too. I've started taking lessons again and am in the midst of trying to upgrade from my baldwin spinet. Have you tried the store on East Sahara that carries Schimmels yet? I take my lessons there and they have a NWS that is unbelievable. It's far beyond what I can afford, but it's definately worth you checking out.
~Brooklyn

My guess is that if you want this piano you could probably get it for less than the $35K he is asking.

A new piano is like a new car -- it loses alot of its value when you take it off the show room floor. When i inquired of dealers what they would give me for a piano that i had bought recently, the standard rate was 50% of what i had paid for it.

There are a limited number of customers for expensive pianos and even less for used expensive pianos that are not Steinways.

If you like the Shigaru, you might ask the dealer what kind of deal they can give you on the SK6. They've already made their money on it - and there's no more to be made. On the other hand, you're a new client. It would be interesting to see how close a price they might come up with. You could then either do a new piano with them - or at least negotiate with the current owner.

I want to hear more about that NWS in Vegas! It might be a good alternative to the Shigeru.