Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Scales and fingerings? I’m confused!

Hey there everyone! My name is Evaldas, and I’m from Lithuania, I’m about to get my piano and start learning. I’m so sorry if a similar thread exists, but I just couldn’t look through all the posts as there are so many. My question is about scales and fingerings. I know two people who play piano, one of them has played piano for I don’t know almost 40 years, and the other is my cousin who finished music school. I bet you start thinking “why don’t you ask the guy who played for 40 years to teach you?” trust me I would, but he lives on a different continent. And my cousin is too busy so I have to stick with a book for a while, later if I’m good I will get a professional teacher. So back to scales and fingerings, back to the book (by the way it’s called “Piano for Dummies”), back to why those two people tell me totally different things. Ok so last weekend I was talking to my friend (the one who played piano for 40 years…) and started bragging that I’m about to start learning, so I asked him some tips, and he said that the most important is fingering based on scales and I was like “shouldn’t you play how it’s more comfortable for you?” and he said that it’s important to stick to standard fingerings, as it’s very hard to unlearn later. Well I thought “ok, I should find all the scales with the fingerings”, but I had no luck, because I found all these odd scales ‘harmonic, melodic bla bla bla”, which I didn’t need, I just wanted simple major and minor scales. Anyways, so later I talked to my cousin about this all, and she said “forget those scales, you should play how it’s more comfortable for you”, so now I’m so confused, do I need to worry about those scales, or should I play how I think it’s more comfortable for me? And like let’s say I must stick to the scale fingerings, so for example if a song is in key of F major, and RH fingering for F major is 12341234, right? So does it mean that I only use the four fingers for a song in F major? I’m so confused! By the way neither “Piano for Dummies” nor “Alfred’s Basic Adult Piano Course” doesn’t talk much about this, just few scales are given. Help me!

Hi Evaldas and welcome! Over time the fingering used for scales has proven to be the most efficient for negotiating them. Learning the fingering correctly from the beginning will prove to be very advantageous for you and essentially, whether minor or major, the basic fingering is 123123412312345 for the right hand 543213214321321 for the left hand ascending. Simply reverse it for descending.

Now for the part that many cannot grasp at first. Not all scales follow that exact pattern but they DO follow the basic 1231234 tho it might not be obvious at first. You cite the F scale as an example. Ok--the RH is 123123412312341234 and the fifth (5) is not used at all! And to descend one simply reverses the order. Now the LH DOES follow the 543213214321321 and again, is simply reversed for descending.

Let's take an example of a key that does NOT start like C, G, D, A--etc. How about Bb? The first line is the letter names of the keys and the numbers underneath are for the fingers which go to each key--

Bb c d Eb f g a Bb c d Eb f g a Bb
3 2 1 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 3 (For LH
--reverse to descend.

RH:

Bb c d Eb f g a Bb c d Eb f g a Bb
4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 (For RH and simply reverse to descend)

The stranger fingering is to avoid using the THUMB (finger 1) on the black keys! Observe that once underway the fingering is the basic 1231234. There are some keys in which the fifth finger is NOT used at all or only to start and end.

If you're serious about learning to play correctly a very important aspect for you to develop is discipline! The practice of the scales is very important to help you develop that aspect of your studies.

The scales are simply the 'building blocks' the composer uses to put together his ideas in sound. The western system of tonality is built around this concept. If playing atonal or aleatory music, then some of these ideas are discarded. For you, as a beginner, it is good to have a firm basic foundation and in the long run your playing will benefit greatly from knowing and understanding these ideas.

I hope this is helpful and you understand what I have written. Best wishes!

Ralph

I'm not familiar with Piano for Dummies, but if you are following the Alfred book, they get into the C, G and F Major scales (and their correct fingering) toward the end of the book. Before that, you are working mostly with 5 finger positions, and you just follow their fingerings for each piece. If you wish to learn scales before you get to that point, you need something like http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store...amp;cm_re=289.1.4-_-Results+Item-_-Title

This book is put out by Bastien, but I'm sure other book publishers have their own version also. The finger numbering is included for all the scales.

I don't think anyone has answered this specific little bit yet. No, it doesn't mean you never use 5 for a piece in F major. If the piece has a scale-like passage in it, you will probably use the scale fingering. And knowing the scale will certainly help you orient yourself in the key. But pieces are made up of lots more than scale passages, so you will need to finger other phrases according to their shape. The scale is a starting point.

Thanks everyone .
That's it, I've talked to a pianist who I trust, and she said that scale fingerings have nothing to do with individual pieces of music. She said that scales are just an exercise for fingers. She said I should use the fingers that are comfortable and that I would be able later to hit other notes, always look few notes further. And besides I've noticed it's sometimes (or most oftenly) impossible to use the scale fingering like let's say there are more voices for one hand, I mean when you have to hold a certain note and while that hit others with your other fingers. And who said you can't use the thumb on black keys? Yes you can! What about B-flat chord? RH is Bb1-D3-F5... There are many many more examples...

I had many yrs. of classical lessons as
a child, and I've been playing for more
than 30 yrs. At one time, I used to practice
all the scales in all keys, maj. and the
three forms of minor, and I used standard
scale fingerings. I also used to do various
technical studies by Hanon, Czerny, Brahms,
Liszt, Bertini, etc. And when I played
real classical compositions, I followed
the printed fingering almost exactly.

However, now I never look at the printed
fingerings on the score--except if nothing
else seems to work. I now play
from the score without looking at my
hands as much as possible. When you do
that, you can let your hands find the
best fingering and technique on their
own with no special effort on your part,
which greatly simplifies playing. Playing
without looking at your hands when using
a score is the single most important thing
in playing the piano. All other skills
--fingering, technique, ear training,
playing by ear, improvising, transposing,
memorization, etc.--derive from this most
basic of all skills.

I no longer do extensive scale practice
or technical studies like Czerny. I've
actually come to believe that too much
scale and arpeggio practice can be bad,
because this gets you reaching for the
next scale note out of habit, but
you rarely run across pure scales and
arpeggios in real music, and so this
can result in constantly hitting wrong
notes.

My current technical workout consists of
one repetition only of the C maj. scale
and the C maj. arpeggio (triads: root
postition and first and second inversions),
mainly for a brief warmup before the rest
of the workout, which consists entirely
of extensive practice of diatonic (not
chromatic) interval scales, which I
personally have found to be the single
best technical study on the piano. This
apparently used to be the basic technical
study in the 17th to 19th centuries.
Pianists like Beethoven and Chopin appear
to have done these daily. There is a
detailed description of diatonic interval
scales here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/37/1529.html#000003

The reason that most piano teachers and
classical players stress standard fingering
is that these people were mostly piano
majors in college, and when you're a piano
major, you have to do things in the standard
way or you'll get a bad grade. So all
through college they used standard fingering,
and they continue to use it after college
in their playing and teaching, because this
is what they were conditioned to do.
But a non-piano major is not
playing for a letter grade, and so he
doesn't have to use standard fingering.

Hi and welcome,

Some poeple no matter how advanced they are don't always know how to explain things to beginners.

Even if you practice all your scales and are comfortable with them you will still have to work out the fingering for a new song (like the person you trust said).

Ultimately I think the fingering that is most comfrotable will be the correct fingering. Its just that since this is new to you, you might have to try a few different ways first. So, you might try something and it feels a little awkard so try a different way. I think you will find that after a while it will start to fall into place. Many people have to mark the fingering in a piece once they find the one that works.

I think there are certain times you don't want to use the thumb on a black key but I don't think you are never to use your thumb on a black key (did that make sense).

btw...here is a good scale book with fingering in it that I like.
http://www.amazon.com/Original-Pian...p;s=books&qid=1227641003&sr=8-10

"The reason that most piano teachers and
classical players stress standard fingering
is that these people were mostly piano
majors in college, and when you're a piano
major, you have to do things in the standard
way or you'll get a bad grade. So all
through college they used standard fingering,
and they continue to use it after college
in their playing and teaching, because this
is what they were conditioned to do.
But a non-piano major is not
playing for a letter grade, and so he
doesn't have to use standard fingering."

Well I don't know about that. Because that person who told me to use fingering that is comfortable, she's actually a pianist who finished university. So maybe USA differs from Europe? Because the person who said to use scale fingerings is from US, and people who I asked here said to use the most comfortable fingers.

I suspect that some people's brains are located in places other than their heads, but I've never heard of having brains in one's hands or fingertips.

Letting your fingers "find the best fingering and technique on their own" would indeed simplify your playing—by crippling your technique entirely and ensuring that the simplest of pieces are all you will ever be able to play.

Steven

And anybody who has half of a brain (whether in their heads or somewhere else ) ought to know that there is no such thing as "standard fingering". :rolleyes:

A fingering that works for one person's hands may not fit those of another.

Ok, maybe half my brain is missing and the other half moved a few feet south, but aren't scale fingerings for major and minor scales pretty standard these days? Not saying they work for everyone, but in my various perusal of scale info on the web all the fingerings seem to be about the same. (My main source is James Cooke's Mastering Scales and Arpeggios. I've also downloaded some smaller scale sheets to practice from and I don't recall seeing any differences.)

He he, I meant fingerings in the repertoire, not scales/arpeggios.

Evaldas,

I'm sorry that the way I stated the scale fingering you thought I meant the thumb never played a black key. No--that's not what I meant. Certainly the thumb plays black keys frequently. To negotiate sensible fingering for diatonic scales, which is what you asked about I think, then the thumb is used in the scale but not on black keys. Why? Because if you use scale fingering for the key of C on C#/Db then the thumb would play F#/Gb and it will only take a moment to prove that it is awkward and pretty much unfeasible in playing scale passages that are encountered in compositions. Practising scales builds good habits.

In pieces the fingering has to be worked out for the patterns encountered and thus advanced fingering habits have to be developed...and, as your friend says, you find the fingering most comfortable for your hand and that will fulfill the musical demands of the passages.

One book for playing scales that was recommended to me by my teacher is The Brown Scale Book by Fredrick Harrid Music.
The book does give recommended fingering

Evaldas, check these sites:

Scales Manual

This is a pretty visual scale manual.
You find for the scale you're looking for and you see it outlined, with fingering on the keyboard.

Scales Chef

This is a nice way to create your own scales sheet book. You choose what scales you want, the layout of the page and the size, and a book with only the scales you requested is created.

^ The problem with most scale charts found on the net is that they already come with key signature.

As a beginner fingering is likely to remain a mystery for a long time.

Therefore don't stress out on it. Use whatever is given to you. Scale fingering should be consistent, always finger D major the same way. But don't worry so much about which version at your stage. You'll never see a D major scale in your music with the same fingering.

Scales on other instruments are critical to technique, that's one of the reasons flutists and trumpet players spend so much time on them. You actually use that fingering for that key in your music, and not doing so will limit you. Piano seems to be a bit different.

But scales must come with key signature.

Why? For a beginner like me it's more difficult with the key signature, it's better when there's an accidental for every note that requires it...

That would be only confusing.
The point of scales is exactly to get accostumed to the concept of key signatures, to modulate and to change the "key realm" in which your consonant notes belong.

I have never seen major and minor scales with an accidental for every note. They wouldn't even be scales (in the technical sense is given to them, which is also why they're usefull)

Besides a scale with an accidental for every note would just be not usefull and you could as well not practice it, because scales per se are not usefull. It's the whole key signature concept and getting used to it and applying to pieces which makes scales practicing usefull.