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#997318 - 11/26/08 12:37 AM Are These Lines Significant?  
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Triryche Offline
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There is a small line under the note stems in the bass clef which are pointing down shown here in measures 55, 57 and 59.


[Linked Image]

Any idea(s) what, if anything, they indicate?

Thanks!!

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#997319 - 11/26/08 12:52 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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sotto voce Offline
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It's a specialized accent mark to indicate tenuto (slightly stressed and held for full value):

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory21.htm#accent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_musical_symbols#Articulation_marks

Steven

#997320 - 11/26/08 01:05 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Awesome, I learned something new today!! smile

Thank You Steven!!

That makes perfect sense!

#997321 - 11/26/08 01:11 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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You are very welcome. I'm glad I could help.

Steven

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#997322 - 11/26/08 04:03 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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And I assume the tenuto applies only to the dotted half-notes, not the 'moving' eighths ?

(Joking) is a passage like this supposed to be played with one hand only ? suppose in measure 59 one 'holds down' the C and G with LH fingers 5 and 4 (awkward) then the moving part of bass clef with LH 3-2-1 ? or RH enters this part - but it has its own notes to play from treble clef...

I had stumbled onto such a piece, with fast and slow parts supposed to cumulate on same hand - and it was really a transcription for organ, where the 'held' part was for pedal.

#997323 - 11/26/08 04:17 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Tenuto is not stressed, just full value. On the piano (which stresses everything) it must not then sound legato (that's kinda what Steven is saying). What the mark is saying is that you must use the pedal to make sure when your RH hand moves to the treble the notes still sing out for their full value.


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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#997324 - 11/26/08 09:09 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Tenuto is not stressed, just full value. On the piano (which stresses everything) it must not then sound legato (that's kinda what Steven is saying). What the mark is saying is that you must use the pedal to make sure when your RH hand moves to the treble the notes still sing out for their full value.
kbk,

I don't understand "it must not then sound legato." Did you include the word "not" by accident?

Steven

#997325 - 11/26/08 11:55 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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On a wind instrument you would soft tongue that tenuto. If you wanted legato you wouldn't tongue at all. On the piano every note is tongued (struck). You mustn't strike so softly that it becomes legato. Unlike a wind instrument, it's all in the context.


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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#997326 - 11/26/08 12:04 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
You mustn't strike so softly that it becomes legato.
Under normal circumstances, or in the presence of the tenuto mark in question?

Steven

#997327 - 11/26/08 12:34 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Articulation?

#997328 - 11/26/08 12:57 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Quote
Originally posted by sotto voce:
Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
[b]You mustn't strike so softly that it becomes legato.
Under normal circumstances, or in the presence of the tenuto mark in question?

Steven [/b]
Neither, unless a piece calls for legato playing.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#997329 - 11/26/08 02:07 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Dolmetsch defines the tenuto mark as a legato accent.

If it were used on consecutive notes, would that not be a call for legato playing?

Steven

#997330 - 11/26/08 04:35 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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No. True legato as a violin or wind instrument gets would result in one long note. Instead these instruments would soft bow/tongue tenuto consecutive notes. The Harvard Dictionary has no mention of accents.


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#997331 - 11/26/08 04:49 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Could you explain what you mean by the term "soft bow"?

#997332 - 11/26/08 05:00 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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My piano teacher explains tenuto as 'playing the notes as 'long' as possible without creating a legato effect. There HAS to be a 'break'.

Ingrid

#997333 - 11/26/08 05:01 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Quote
Originally posted by keystring:
Could you explain what you mean by the term "soft bow"?
No.


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#997334 - 11/26/08 08:48 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Any marking such as the tenuto is, unfortunately, open to interpretation.

Using the The Harvard Dictionary as the one and only reliable source is questionable.

As to brass, any repeated note must be at least lightly tongued in order to cause enough separation to allow the ear to hear separate notes.

Different notes can be played only with finger changes. No tongue is necessary. Usually notes under a phrase mark indicate no tongue. The exception is when repeated notes ARE under a phrase.

I would personally reserve the tenuto mark for length only, hold full value. Just don't expect all composers to limit use for only length.


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#997335 - 11/26/08 09:47 PM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Fortunately for me, the interpretation for the above scenario is fairly straight forward. Especially since I can listen to the the composer's recording.

Great discussion though!! thumb

Thanks again!! laugh

#997336 - 11/27/08 02:26 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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Quote
Originally posted by Gary D.:

Using the The Harvard Dictionary as the one and only reliable source is questionable.
Well how about The Oxford Companion, The New Oxford Companion, Everyman's Dictionary and Groves then? Not to mention the venerable CPE Bach!


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#997337 - 11/28/08 04:29 AM Re: Are These Lines Significant?  
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None of these sources so much as mention additional weight or emphasis in addition to length? Are the definitions very brief?

Debussy seemed to have used the marks for both. Perhaps there has been a gradual shift in meaning, much as Allegro at some point stopped meaning "cheerful".

I agree with the primary meaning and use the mark that way myself, but limiting the meaning to only length and never to the idea of slight emphasis might easily lead to misinterpreting some of the works of more modern composers.


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