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(Disclaimer, I stole the following statement from another web site.)

I found it immensely interesting and thought you guys, especially the teachers would like to talk about it. It makes me wonder if I'm doing something wrong. I tend to play with hesitation and pauses as I learn each song and build it up to speed. The statement below does make some sense. Please discuss.

At the start of the new year I usually pick up a handful of new students. Every time I do I realise that the majority of them who have left their previous piano teacher had never been actually taught how to practice their music correctly. They have been simply told to repeat and repeat until it is done, this brute force method is inefficient and simply tests the students patience (a real reason why most give up).

SLOW TEMPO while practicing is a very well known concept when learning a new piece but how does this change the way in which we practice? Some people will choose a slow tempo but still pause, hesitate and search for notes. It is this pausing, break in musical thought which needs to be avoided and what sets you up for WRONG practice and countless hours of wasted time.

Slow practice is important but if there are pauses and hesitation then you are not going slow enough and are simply practicing inefficiently! You can practice the piano for 1 hour with all pauses and note searching, it will not be as effective as 10 mins of uninterrupted practice. An Australian concert pianist Roger Woodward mentioned to me that the brain can memorise shapes of the hand, movement of the hand, there is a nerve which attributes to this muscular memory, but as we pause and search for notes with bad practicing habits, we are interrupting this memorisation process.

So to practice correctly we must play exactly what is written on the sheet of music, not pause and try to find out where we are, we should have the ability to choose a tempo such that we have all the time in the world to find the next note without pausing and distorting the music. To me this is the most important factor of correct practice to memorise notes and something I drill to students who practice too fast.

I thought I'd mention this because I have been drilling the idea for the last month to my new students who are gradually understanding the difference and getting through a lot more music with less time.

it's more in line with CC Chang's ideas on practice and i'm sure many people on this forum are already aware of it.

it's good to remind us of something like that so that we could avoid wrong ways to practice.

Dear ABF's:

I'm a great believer of analyzing the piece for complexity and then preparing the hands alone in a steady slow pulse, athen putting hands together only when they very much know individually what their job (hands)is. Even if you think the piece is easy, do this anyway. There are benefits to it.

Analysis could include:
Title/Composer/Era,
Time Signature,
Key Signature,
Note Values (for instance:dotted 16th and 1/8's/
phrases (notice they end in half notes)
Form, where does a new idea start A, B, C?
Accidentals added?
Dynamics?
Do I know how to do everything in the piece or do I not know what fermata means? Or, Vivace? Or Coda? All kinds of things to check out to make sure you have the "savvy" before starting.

The good news is that this allow for good memory since you know the structure of the piece better from analysing it. You are well informed before you start.

Also, if it doesn't have measure numbers at the beginning of each line, put them in. Then when you have a problem area of Measures 17-21, you'll be able to note it in your assignment book and practice it before you start this piece from the beginning.

Each time you practice work of the "trouble spots" first. Don't always start at Measure 1.

Do not make the mistake on a new piece of practicing all the way through each and every time. You need small segments 4 to 8 measures to develop through repetition. Stick will all of form A and look for repetitions of form A, perhaps with slight differences (A1, A2) before going on to B.

Be methodical in your "study". This is not the entertaining portion of practice this is where the mental and physical work is done. When finished, and you have done "enough" a good performance is your reward. Hopefully, you will finish the piece sooner than is the norm with your old process of practicing. (Let me know please!)

If you are stopping and starting, you are working over your head. How does it feel to be painting only ceilings? (Silly question!) Try working in that position - head back, eyes looking up, arm extended with a paint roller, catch that drip, up and down on the ladder. Yo!
Not at your pianistic best in that position with a paint brush in your hand, looking at the ceiling.

And, final silly question - Are you sitting on the piano bench facing in the right direction?

Enough! Have fun, too!

Betty

You don't really learn to play piano at your lessons; you learn to play piano in the hours you spend alone practicing. I am a firm believer that one of the most important things you should expect from a teacher, especially in the early stages of your study, is learning how to practice. Slow practice is important, but that's not all there is to it. I have learned literally dozens of techniques and exercises from my teachers to help me make the most of my practice time.

I find that if I am not very disciplined when I sit down to practice, I can spend a lot of time at the keyboard without accomplishing very much. I always have a list in front of me of specific problems or areas that I want practice. I rarely just sit and play from the beginning of a piece over and over. I work on small sections or specific problems, usually for 15-20 minutes at a time and then I move on to some other area. I also take lots of 5 minute breaks.

Slow practice, including slow practice with each hand alone, is critical to much of my practice time. I often use the metronome just to slow myself down when I detect a tendency to practice something too fast. If you practice a troublesome section faster than you can really play it, you are really just ingraining mistakes and that is not a good way to eliminate those mistakes.

Piano playing involves innumerable physical
and psychological factors. For example,
right now you could probably sit down
and play the piece you're working on
quite well. You know the notes, you
know what it sounds like, you know what
the notation means--people have posted of
experiences where they sometimes sit
down and everything seems to go just right,
and they can play more fluently than normally.
And yet, for a variety of physical and
psychological reasons, you can't, or won't,
do this. This is why there seems to
be a kind of knack to good sight-reading.
There are some people who just seem to
be able to do it better than others:
they are able to sit down, block out
everything else, and just concentrate
on playing what's written. (But these's
no free lunch, and good sight-readers
are often lacking in other areas, like
memorization and interpretation.)

Mark737, I for one am very grateful that you've posted this extract. It makes some very important points, succinctly. This is the first time I've really become excited about the benefits of practicing slowly and especially, without hesitation. The principle has been discussed ad infinitum but your post has really brought the 'nuts and bolts' of this subject to the fore... thanks again, I can't wait to put the information to the test!

Mark737- I, especially, needed to read that article; thank you for posting it!!

I have always had a problem with not playing slowly as I am learning a new song, and this article was a slap in the face telling me to stop playing so darn fast when learning something new, as I am only setting myself up for disaster.

Thanks!!

I think this is really useful advice. Practicing something with the metronome (set at a slower pace than you think you are capable of) really is the best way of testing whether you can play something without hesitations. The metronome doesn't lie!

As a small follow up here is Changs web site and his free book link(s). This expands the opening post to a whole concept for those not already familar with Chang.

I'm glad it was of help cruiser amd lewisslp.

http://www.pianofundamentals.com/

http://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/chapter_1

Are the adult beginners saying here that they develop their pieces on their own, without any previewing of a new piece with the teacher, or receiving any input on how to practice this new song?

Are you also selecting what you will play with no "plan" from the teachers. Who is leading the instruction? If you are spending a long time on "getting" a piece learned you might need more information and instruction from the teacher before you are able to work so independently.

I am learning a lot about the concerns and preferences of adult beginners by reading your postings. It helps me understand more than I did, and it's only been a little over a month since I joined.I try to help when I see an "issue", but if you prefer that I don't do this here, since I am a teacher and we have a different site, I will take your suggestions. I don't mean to be intrusive.

Good post Mark. This echos what my new teacher keeps emphasizing in our lessons. Betty also has some excellent points that my teacher goes through in our lessons.

We look at everything in a new piece, time signatures, phrasing, repeats, difficult sections even before we place our hands on the piano.

then she stresses the importance of playing slowwwwwww in order to play it correctly the first time. kind of applying the law of primaries. If you learn it incorrectly the first time it'll be difficult to relearn it so learn it correctly the first time.

she has me doing little sections until i get them right and then once they're right i'm allowed to move on.

we always go through the piece first and identify the difficult sections. she has me practice that first and once it's down then we move to the easier sections and after it's all down we put it together.

Hi Betty,

Many adults in the ABF forum do not have a teacher and learn music the way they were taught years ago. Others in the forum have never had a teacher and learn through trial and error, or come to piano forums to get ideas on how to learn more effectively. I believe we would both be surprised at the elevated level of play by many who have never taken a lesson from a teacher and play beautifully. Many have used piano method books and some have never looked at books or sheets. Of course, many have teachers and still participate here. This forum runs the gamut from an instructional point of view.

I, for one, enjoy your participation in the ABF forum. Based upon your many years of teaching you make a valuable contribution to the knowledge base of the forum. Your willingness to help with informed suggestions is sincere and generous. Being a teacher who frequents the ABF is surely a plus for the ABF. If you keep your "knuckle smacker" out of sight, you should always feel welcome here.

Warm regards,

Lisztener

Many of the folks who've responded on this thread have teachers, and many of them have a lot of respect for their teachers, but I don't know how much they're starting pieces independently of their instructors, so I can't address that. But I've listened to many of them playing in the recitals, or the piano bars, and I love what they're doing, as obviously they do!

Many of us in ABF *don't* have formal teachers, so I guess we're essentially leading our own instruction I've found CC Chang's book to be very informative, tho I have the 2nd ed and there's some stuff I take with a grain of salt. I plan on comparing it with the newer stuff on his web site to see how it's changed.

I have no problem with Betty posting here - I learn a lot from lots of different people, and she has lots of experience and often helpful posts. But I do remember her worrying at one point about adults learning theory by reading lots of different stuff instead of using a teacher and learning sequentially - yup, that's me! And I assure you I love learning that way, and it suits me well. As an adult I have found great pleasure in being a "gleaner" of information from a million different places, and for every job I've ever had, not to mention my hobbies, that's been a really strong/good point for me. It works for me in, as far as I can tell, every aspect of my life. I occasionally take a continuing ed course, or audit a for-credit course, and most of the time I'm familiar with more than half the course concepts before I walk in the door, and the course helps "gel" them, or I get an "aha" moment when a particular topic is brought up. But I don't worry at all about whether I'm learning what the instructor thinks I should be learning - But I knew a lot about physics informally before I took Physics 101 when I was 40 The pleasure of discovering in that particular way is a huge part of who I am, and isn't divorceable from music for me. My impression at the minute is that if I decide to do something more "formal" in the way of learning at this point in my life I'm more likely to order videos from Scott the Piano Guy (I have a couple of Homespun tape videos I like very much), or check into Piano Magic (which appears to me to be a *really* democratic kind of site), or, at the very most, take a teacher training course from Simply Music (hi, PianoteacherKim!), not necessarily because I'd teach, but because I like the philosophy and I liked a lot about the first three tapes I got, than to take lessons from a piano teacher. Which was a long sentence whose meaning may have gotten lost in the parenthesis -

So I guess we're all pretty different around here, and the fun of it, at least for me, is seeing/hearing everyone get excited about what they're learning, and sharing their insights into how/what they're learning. For some folks taking lessons is exactly the way to go to give them the pleasure I get from gleaning. More power to them. And I suspect the lessons range all over the map for the variations in how much they are instructor-led and student-led, as, it seems to me, they should. So I find many people's posts valuable, and I'm glad they're all here posting -

Cathy

Betty, I'm not quite sure how literally you mean this. I have one 1-hour lesson every other week. In between those lessons I practice anywhere from 30-40 hours and usually have 3 or 4 pieces in various stages of development.

I'm playing things like Bach Inventions, Chopin Waltzes, Grieg Lyric Pieces, or Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words, and it typically takes me 6-8 weeks to start one of these and move it through the learning process until I'm ready to let it go for something new. I'm not a natural talent and learning piano is one of the hardest things I've ever done.

I do look at new pieces with my teacher and we often sight-read a few sections in addition to just discussing generally how the piece works and how I could approach learning it. My teacher and I jointly select works for me and, although I often bring things I like, my teacher is not shy about "directing" me to other things if he thinks that's better. In the end, I think we're both comfortable with our selections.

But there are a lot of practice hours between lessons and if I don't have the tools to develop a practice strategy somewhat on my own, then I'm sunk. One of the important things about adult students is that they want to get good enough to be independent learners even if they still accept the need for a teacher. A good teacher in my opinion helps their student gain technical and musical independence as early as practical in their piano life.

(ps: I'm very happy to see your contributions to this forum and hope they continue)

Thank you for your really great answers!

I asked that because I am concerned about being seen or understood as nagging, and I really hate that. I am a real believer in sequencing of music information.

Yes, I agree that it's a lot of work, and that's another reason that I've been concerned about individual study, especially when there have been some confusing postings. But, that's not you! You obviously are thrilled about your music and learning! How wonderful!

"The Thing" song years ago, "Get out of here with that boom, boom,boom, before I call a cop" ....and then his wife says, "Don't come back no more!" Anybody remember that? This song has been running through my head since my husband started singing it the other day.

I'm so glad to hear that I'm not as irritating as I was feeling I might be perceived. And, if anybody differs and wants to say so, either here, or in a private message, I'll listen!

Thank you very much, again!

Oh, and then on-topic, of course,

I definitely think the metronome is a good way of telling if I know a piece, and that if I can't play it at speed with the metronome I don't know it well enuf to play for a dance - so slowing it down until I can play it comfortably, without hesitations, or being able to play thru the mistakes and still keep the beat and pulse, and simplifying it if I have to in order to play it that way at speed (I mean, there's a dance next week!) is part of my responsibility to my fellow musicians and the dancers.

Slow practice without the metronome is really important to me because that's the way I *can* take time to really be aware of what I'm doing and how it's working with no pressure, and if I try it slowly with a metronome and run into trouble I go back and work it out without the metronome. And the bounce and speed come from that sureness, not from trying to play fast to start with.

I also find that being able to play thru my mistakes, or with no hesitations, is often more a matter of "keeping my head in the ballgame" than a physical lack of skill - wasn't it Yogi Berra that said "90% of this game is half mental" or something to that effect

Cathy

Betty, I personally love your insight about piano and music. If you were local to me I'd be your student. Thanks for your contributions.

Mark

Well!!! I've read all of the above discussion and find it quite interesting. I had a teacher who once told me the best way to learn a piece was to play it so slowly that you rarely made a mistake but kept with a metronome, and then, to increase the metronome one notch at a time until you arrived at the tempo which was appropriate. So, this works, I suppose. But has anyone read William Westney's book "The Perfect Wrong Note"?

There are so many different ways to learn a piece. Sometimes I get lost in the beauty of one measure which is so incredibly difficult. I tell myself that I will not leave this measure until it's mine and I know it inside and out and can play it beautifully.

And believe it or not, sometimes I use extreme visualization to master a piece. I well remember preparing an organ piece by Marcel Dupre for a competition. His prelude and fugue in G Minor. The prelude moves like the wind for 10 pages with absolutely no rest in the hands while the pedals are playing double, triple and quadruple notes. After relentless hours of non-stop practicing, it wasn't until I came up with a vision which helped me "conquer" the notes and technique. Are you ready for this? I invisioned Meriweather in Disney's "Sleeping Beauty" as she buzzes, flies, and wisps through the forest. You can laugh all you want but at my next lesson (this was while I was working on my master's degree at TCU and preparing for the Chartres International Organ Competition) my professor said "Did you take a Dupre pill? That was absolutley perfection." And with the recording of that piece, I was accepted as a participant in this elite competition. (No, I didn't win. sigh. . .)

Now -- if I could only apply these ideas to my own lack of being able to memorize, I'd have it made! smile. . .

Laurence

Betty, these words of yours apply to me, unfortunately. I have had two teachers in Hamburg, where I now live, and neither has even mentioned practice 'plans' or, more worryingly I think, the benefits of practicing slowly.

My current teacher is a young, accomplished Japanese pianist who recently graduated from the Hamburg Conservatory. She has me practicing Hanon and variations thereof in order to build technique, and I readily accept the value of these exercises. I'm also currently working on pieces from the Alfred book 'Chopin, an introduction to his piano works' - this is my choice and the teacher has not suggested that I should follow another prescribed study path. She has never advised me about a home practice strategy for the pieces I'm working on.

In order to 'stretch' myself I'm also - secretly! - working on Chopin's Nocturne Opus 48 No1. I know this piece is way beyond my current ability but I love it, and it is giving me so much pleasure as I progress - slowly! - through the first part (Lento). Maybe this is not an advisable strategy, but I'm under no illusion that it will take me anything less than a couple of years to 'master'. I should perhaps at this juncture mention that I'm 56 years of age and last had lessons as a child, many years ago; I'm probably at about grade 5/6 level.

As you'll appreciate, time is not on my side, but the piano has now become such an essential ingredient in my life, and my quest for artistic fullfillment, that I want to make every moment count in my venture to become as accomplished a pianist as possible.

By the way, my teacher speaks not a word of English and, as my German is not sufficiently advanced, being able to communicate the myriad of thoughts and emotions, essential in relation to music, is difficult for me; I am actively looking for another teacher! In the meantime, I'm probably getting better advice right here.

This forum is priceless to me and I have no doubt that if I hadn't discovered it, my enthusiasm would probably have waned. And this is thanks to all the kind, knowledgeable and enthusiastic people of like mind who post here. This most certainly includes you Betty and I, for one, need and appreciate your invaluable help, advice and guidance... can you move to Hamburg, please?

Michael

Laurence - I love your Dupre-pill-story. I am a great fan of French organ music and everyone who can play it, and wish I could have heard your "Meriweather".

Betty, it is so good to have you here, I do listen to your advice, even if I'm old (42)and stubborn as the rest of the ABF-ers.

I got a teacher this spring and was hoping to work more systematically and to become better at memorizing. Then it seems what have improved most since Christmas is my sight-reading (that has always been quite good). And my ability to memorize is still close to zero.
Am I stuck with my strong/weak sides and not able to change ?

Ragnhild