Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum How far would you step back to maximise your potential?

My question doesn't relate to total begginers but is relevant to most of us who frequent the ABF forum.

Would you be willing to revisit the fundamentals of piano playing and practice with the promise of longterm gains?

This post has been prompted by my first proper piano lesson for 27 years. I came to the lesson thinking of myself as an intermediate level pianist, able to play a number of pieces such as Fur Elise and Schubert Impromptu Op90 No.3, as well as "rough" efforts at the likes of Chopin Fantasie Impromptu.
I explained that I would like to play these pieces to a good level and I proceeded to play some of the Schubert above. Her immediate response was that I played with a great deal of unnecessary tension, something I agree with.The master plan suggested by my teacher on seeing my technique (or lack of) is roughly as follows.

• One or two crotchet scales played no faster than crotchet 40 bpm separate hands, total concentration on max relaxation and hand/finger/wrist/arm/body position. - 15 mins.

• The same as above using the first Hanon excercise.

• Taking Chopin Etude Op10 no.3 which I know reasonably well, play hands separate LH, RH accompaniment and RH melody. All very slowly, no hands together (maybe once for a treat).

• Some gentle finger/joint massage.

• Recommendation not to play anything else from my "repertoire" for the time being.

• Medium term, to introduce some "easier" pieces to allow the evolution of this new, hopefully more relaxed, controlled technique.

When I asked if we were looking at a time scale of 5 years or so to get on track, my teacher said that might be the case with lot's of hard work. I'm 42 so the time scale is reasonably important to me.

So back to my original question, would you be willing to stop playing and practicing all the pieces you love and enjoy in the short term? I'm assuming that the "ban" on playing my faves would slowly be lifted if any decent progress is being made.

Cheers, Chris

Due to very bad tuition as a child I very often find myself stepping back. I can handle grade 8 pieces but am only now learning the scales. And yes, the scales are worthwhile.

Sorry Frycek, I posted my topic by mistake before I'd finished the whole post. There are a few more specifics added to beef out my question.

Chris

Not only would I be willing, but I have. The story is not quite the same as Frycek's. Trust your teacher on this, TJ, and work with him. Essentially the source of everything advanced we do lies in a very few simple things that are the foundation of our playing. "Going back" does not mean that you will slog at the same pace that you did the first time around. You will get at these foundations in a different way, so to say "to the heart of the matter". When you reach this "heart", and grow from it, everything that you do flows forth from there - everything is affected in a positive way. You will truly progress and you will experience progress in a way you cannot imagine yet.

The bad news is that revamping is quite arduous. You cannot settle into your old habits and just play as you used to. You cannot do the basic beginning things as you did then, but in a new, better, more focussed manner. And you have to do it that way each and every time so your new habits become reinforced and the old ones disappear. It's hard, but it's really powerful stuff. Trust your teacher, work hand in hand with him, asking him questions as you go along. Give it some months and then see what happens.

Hmmm...I have sort of done the same thing. While I didn't have to give up everything in my repertoire, I had to give up some pieces that I really like. Almost anything with an octave reach or more I tend to hold my hand in that position thereby developing more and more tension as I go on. These are the things that I have been told to back away from. I have to slowly develop the correct, relaxed form of playing that allows my hand to relax and then reach again for the octave (or whatever).

And I've been playing at the piano since the 1957 (which comes to about 51 years). Note that there were long gaps when I didn't play the piano (was playing guitar or flute or recorder or some other instrument). I've also had only about three years of lessons -- two in the very beginning and then a gap of four years and another year of lessons. I've recently been having informal lessons with a piano teacher who is not yet ready to start giving lessons (due to other commitments as a recent graduate with a degree in music performance on the piano and flute).

Ed

Forgive me my ignorance-but what are crotchet scales?

As for the original question, if I trusted this teacher I would follow their instructions no matter what it meant I had to change-especially if it meant that my playing would be significantly improved. I'm sure I play with tension too, mostly because after long sessions I feel it in my arms and back. I'd give it a good honest try.

Chris,

Sounds good to me (BTW... what are crochet scales?). When I took lessons I used to dread going in because i knew that she would turn my world upside down but heck... that's what we amateurs need. Otherwise we just stay in our ruts reinforcing our bad habits.

that said... I would not totally give up my repertoire. Maybe just play through them bit by bit, slowly just to keep them in your memory. But that's me... I read so badly that most of my stuff is memorized and if I don't play them every now and then they disappear.

I'm having trouble equating five years "or so" (!) with "short term"; that seems like a long time, indeed, to sacrifice working on the stuff you enjoy the most.

Even if the proposed hiatus were truly short term (like five months, perhaps), I think the answer to your question depends on how much you think you're being held back by tension or other problems—and whether you think you can find motivation and satisfaction practicing such a spartan regimen.

My own deficiencies are in the study and practice of scales and arpeggios for their own sake (as opposed to within the context of repertoire). I've pushed myself to advance and build my technique through increasingly challenging pieces—which has worked for me, but I haven't had problems with tension. And I could just add scales and arpeggios to my current routine without giving anything up, if I thought it worthwhile and had the time.

I don't know how much of an obstacle tension represents to impeding one's progress or what the most effective way of dealing with it is, but I do think it should be taken seriously. I recommend you seek another professional opinion (in addition to the ones that are sure to be offered here), as five years really is a long time to spend in a remedial routine.

Steven

I guess it doesn't really feel like "stepping back" to me. I always feel like I've got so many new things to learn that when I go back to play something I've played forever I will often slow it down and try to play it with whatever new musical things I've been learning on other pieces. "Broadening" my musical skills, rather than "going back" might describe it better for me. If before I could, say, play the notes on The Entertainer at a bouncy speed and feel, now I can work on pieces of it where the octaves could be more definite, or the phrasing could be changed, or the balance between right and left hands, or a myriad other things. I never start a new "fast" piece without having to learn some sections of it up to speed hands separate, I am always amazed at how relaxed my hands can be after I've gotten the notes well under control, and I try to start new pieces with that feel. Some pieces that are harder for me do get put by the wayside while I incorporate new learning into easier pieces, but it still feels like that's going forwards, not backwards. I've been known to play my beginning kids books sometimes - funny how musical they sound now and didn't then

5 years to get some new techniques up and running? Who's counting? But 5 years before I'll try Maple Leaf Rag again, or play The Entertainer in public again? No, I'm not likely to do that. For me there's something to be said for all the intermediate stations along the way. If I had to wait until things were "ready" I'd never get there

Cathy

I'd take the new teacher's advice with a grain of salt and give her program a try for a couple of months perhaps. You make make great progress or you may miss your old repertoire so much you can't stand it. You can always say "no thanks" after you've given it a try. I have a friend who had actually won a couple of competitions who was faced with the prospect of a similar "reconstruction" from a new teacher. She was so disheartened at the whole idea that she's barely touched a piano since.

I would not give up on playing pieces. But besides the pieces I play/practice, I spend 15-30 minutes a day practicing scales, arpeggios, trills, thirds, octaves, etc. It's not stepping back, but it's an ongoing process without end. It's the foundation to playing piano, and you need to have a solid one if you want to build something big & tall over it.

It's like practicing/learning how to stand, walk, and breathe when I learn martial arts.

I'm going to step back a few levels over the summer to really study/listen to the harmonic progression of easier pieces. I want to be able to easily identify where the music is going rather then 'play the notes'... which is what I sometimes feel like I am doing.

Jeez that's hard to say...

I believe in the importance of a strong foundation and also that it's worthwhile to correct habitual tension ASAP. Tension always seems to lead to more tension, on the flipside playing without tension is much more enjoyable. I'm constantly reminding myself to be less tense (often I believe the tension comes from the mind, getting into a 'difficulty' mentality that eventually manifests as physical tension... Often the root is mental tension).

If I were in your shoes, I would faithfully dive right into her program, but I would try and progress much faster than she expects because 5 years seems a bit long.

On the other hand, her idea of 'basics' could be very comprehensive and may intend to take you much farther than you expect over 5 years.

If she's being to rigid, you will be know if you've mastered the step (you will be able to tell if it's with ease or still tense) and she arbitrarily insists on staying at that step.

I think this is one of those things that ya just have to try and find out if it'll work for you. Having a solid foundation by 47 would still be preferable to struggling with tension beyond that age, no?

You know ... I find myself hoping that Gyro will weigh in here!



Steven

Steven , that really made me laugh. I await with bated breath.

Sorry about the "crotchet scale" confusion, I was trying to make it clear that the notes were played at one note every beat of a 40 bpm metronome or slower, sorry!

Just to add, I think I'll miss playing pieces either fast or slow in the short term. But I have a real sense of excitement about this new approach. I appreciate if this "monastic" approach extends into years this would be intolerable. I hope the approx. 5 year period mentioned is the time it will take me to reach a new higher level.

Chris

Food for thought: My son was pursuing music as a profession at university and I was a fair number of years behind him. He came home playing the same study that I was which he had played years ago, at 1/4 of the speed of back then, and every note had to be perfect in every possible way. That really told me something.

I told my teacher last week I was having counting and timing issues and were going back to the Bastian level one book to try and fix those problems.

Chris,
When I started lessons again a year and a half ago - I was faced with the same issue - tension. A teacher many years ago had spent each lesson telling me 'push into the keys' without any further elaboration and I dutifully did so - never a word about stopping the push. My current teacher was quite speechless when she first heard me play - tension combined with nerves. I felt sorry for her, trying to break the news to me that a rebuild was necessary. She didn't want me playing what I had prepared because the tension was part of the physical pattern of playing that piece. She gave me a series of exercises to do and chose pieces that were 'easy' so that I could concentrate on technique, relaxation, tone etc. The good news is that it actually took only about 6 months before she started suggesting more interesting music. I think this is because when you get a feel for playing without tension, it's just so much easier and sounds so much better that there's nothing pulling you back into the old habits - they just don't work as well. I always felt I was making progress and learning. I'd assume that the five years would include learning all sorts of technique that you've never been exposed to and that would be necessary to playing more advanced pieces well.

I'm going through something similar. After playing for around 35 years I've decided to go back to basics and address the issues that I've always ignored. My technique has never been something I've particularly focussed on and somehow I've always got by without having to worry too much.

However in recent years I've procrastinated to the point where I'm playing the same old standards and run of the mill tunes that are no longer pushing my ability. I've now decided to take a step back and pick up again from the beginning.

From my experience along the way sometimes you need to step back and reassess and looking at the basics doesn't seem a bad idea.

However I'm not sure I could completely ignore my old repertoire and just practise scales and exercises for the next 5 years. I guess it's all about where you want to take your music. I have my music primarily for fun and therefore the primary goal is enjoyment. If you want to be a virtuoso pianist then of course 5 years (and some more) of hard gruel would be prerequisite. For me I still want to enjoy myself too so I'll try to balance my playing with some more scales and exercises which will hopefully bring better technique, new and more challenging pieces which will hopefully bring more stimulation and some new genres which will bring more variation.

I would be willing to go back. In fact, now that I'm starting with a teacher again...it seems I was willing, even eager, to 'go back' to easier pieces farther than she was willing to take me!