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#986898 - 12/28/04 04:46 PM I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 55
footom Offline
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As a long-time guitar player, I know how to play chords and notes. I long ago memorized chord shapes on the piano in the different keys...6ths, 7ths, maj7ths, minor, minor 7ths, diminished, augmented, suspended, ninths, etc, etc.

Currently, I plunk the chords with my left hand, the notes with my right hand. I'm fluent at it, but it's BORING.

Does anyone know a book, a teacher, a technique or a strategy I can employ to take my shape recognition and use it to make my playing sound like I'm playing piano? That is, having both hands participating in melody, chords, and punctuating bass, not just like two guys playing guitars?

I would be most appreciative.

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#986899 - 12/28/04 05:20 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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apple* Offline
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Kansas
You actually have a great asset at your fingertips if your brain can get there..

exercises, practice practice practice.. Can you read and play piano music?


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#986900 - 12/28/04 05:34 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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footom Offline
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I can read bass and treble clef but I'm a little rusty at the bass clef. I used to play trombone which is in the bass clef.

The asset part sounds encouraging. How so?

And thanks for the reply.

#986901 - 12/28/04 05:47 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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mathew Offline
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how to play the chords by the melodie part.

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#986902 - 12/28/04 05:58 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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Bob Muir Offline
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Sudnow has a system of harmonising the chords and melodies. You can read more on his website and here:

Sudnow - first impressions

Even if it's not perfect, I bet you get $40 worth out of the CDs.

#986903 - 12/28/04 06:06 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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apple* Offline
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you know how written music is structured, You understand melody and accompaniment, you've assimilated probably most of the theory you will need, all you have to do is catch your fingers up and get used to playing what you read.


piece of cake. smile


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#986904 - 12/28/04 06:12 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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PianoRocker Offline
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My fingering is pretty proficient, but apple's right: I wish I had all of the chords memorized.

#986905 - 12/28/04 06:15 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
Joined: Jan 2003
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apple* Offline
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me too......... :rolleyes:

I don't even know the names of the keys as in "What Key is That Written In?


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#986906 - 12/28/04 07:14 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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footom Offline
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Bob, that was a great string, and terrific insight into the Sudnow course. I briefly studied your first message...just walked Max the dog and want to continue communicating here.

Apple...you make it sound like I'm close; I don't mind playing "cocktail party style"...it's actually a goal.

One way might be to practice my "guitar chords", or chord shapes, on the right hand for a while. Each chord has more than one shape. Then try to get familiar enough with the shapes to keep the melodic note on top of the chord, at least for now, till I learn dynamics. Then try to make it sound interesting, via bass progressions, right hand chord bits in the intervals between the melody, and maybe whatever else I can structure after I listen more carefully to good music, or analyse patterns in well-written notation.

I don't mind practicing; I've practiced guitar an hour or two per day for many years. I am happy that perhaps I'm formulating a way to make my practicing more exploitative of the skills I've already formulated, so I can make perhaps more forward practice than lateral practice.

Apple, you have so many posts, yet you can't always recognize the key by looking at the score, right? So please tell me, what kind of music do you play, do you feel comfortable with it, and what is your training?

#986907 - 12/28/04 07:25 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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footom Offline
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Piano rocker and apple...you should check out "Piano Chords" under the "Fun And Interesting" menu on the PIANOWORLD home page. Lots of the chords have the same shape. For example Dm7, G7, Em7, Fmaj7, Am7, Cmaj7, and Bm7-5 all have the same simple shape, ie, every other white key, four in all. Each of these chords has the dominant as its first note.

#986908 - 12/29/04 06:28 AM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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markb Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by footom:
Piano rocker and apple...you should check out "Piano Chords" under the "Fun And Interesting" menu on the PIANOWORLD home page. Lots of the chords have the same shape. For example Dm7, G7, Em7, Fmaj7, Am7, Cmaj7, and Bm7-5 all have the same simple shape, ie, every other white key, four in all. Each of these chords has the dominant as its first note.
I took guitar lessons for about 5 months last year, just enough to conclude that it's a very hard instrument to play. IMO, piano chords are easier to figure out, including inversions and extensions, because it's so easy to "see" them on the piano. Guitar chords, on the other hand, aren't as graphic, so trying to figure out an inversion or an extension is a much more mechanical process (figuring out which string and which fret and which finger, and then they're different in different octaves). I suppose barre chords eases chord changes to a great degree, but then just learning how to consistently and clearly play such a chord is difficult.

Once you know the basics of forming piano chords, I don't think that chord charts are imperative, unlike with guitar, where having a chord chart can save lots of time. I highly suggest learning how to form all sorts of chords and inversions that will lead to more efficient changes. In your post, you noted that those seven chords all have the same basic shape. However, if you were to play them in progression (which you probably wouldn't do in your example, although you might have certain combinations of those chords), it would be much more efficient to play certain inversions, thus, you don't want to rely solely on chord shapes.


markb--The Count of Casio
#986909 - 12/29/04 06:30 AM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
Joined: Aug 2004
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mound Offline
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sounds like you're off to a great start.

here's something you may or may not have tried - start taking those chord shapes that you know and inverting them or inverting them and splitting them between both hands.. same notes, same chord shapes, just "exploded" less notes in a given hand, using both hands, and not necessarilly always with the root on the bottom.


"You look hopefully for an idea and then you're humble when you find it and you wish your skills were better. To have even a half-baked touch of creativity is an honor."
-- Ernie Stires, composer
#986910 - 12/29/04 06:41 AM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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markb Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by mound:
sounds like you're off to a great start.

here's something you may or may not have tried - start taking those chord shapes that you know and inverting them or inverting them and splitting them between both hands.. same notes, same chord shapes, just "exploded" less notes in a given hand, using both hands, and not necessarilly always with the root on the bottom.
That's similar to what Sudnow does (at least, that's my limited understanding so far). He has the root with the LH 5, 5th or octave with LH 1, melody with RH 5, underneath that is 3rd in RH, and also extensions and "color tones" with RH. Very open voicing.


markb--The Count of Casio
#986911 - 12/29/04 06:57 AM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
Joined: Jan 2003
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apple* Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by footom:


Apple, you have so many posts, yet you can't always recognize the key by looking at the score, right? So please tell me, what kind of music do you play, do you feel comfortable with it, and what is your training?
I am the world's most avid amateur classical pianist. I've studied on my own... mostly just learning literature note by note, for the last 30 years. I have had my 8th lesson with a teacher... I adore studying with someone after so many years alone, and hope I can find someone of his caliber to fill his shoes when he leaves me frown

I accompany a choir/ensemble and have been a church musician for years. Currently I am working on a bunch of preludes/fugues from WTC, a couple etudes, a nocturne and a waltz by Chopin, a Mozart sonata, and all the church music I learn monthly.

I could survive solely on a diet of Bach.. I am trying to become a Angela Hewett clone. Also I'm working on a Lizst/Bach organ/piano fugue.. absolute heaven... probably in the key of C wink

My background is spotty theoretically. I really cannot identify most of the key signatures. I can learn how to play justabout anything that is not in the stratosphere of technical difficulty occupied by some of the pieces by Prokofief, Scriabin and Rachmaninoff.

In a year, I'll blow my teacher away with my recital (Ssssssssssssshhhhhhhh- he does'nt know that yet)

I really liked Mound's suggestion of explodingthe chords.

I guess if I were you I would buy printed music of scales and arpeggios.. Practicing them would train your fingers and cement the brain-finger-reading connections you need to establish.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#986912 - 12/29/04 07:59 AM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
Joined: Oct 2004
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Rodney Offline
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Caledon ON, Canada
footom,

The style of playing that you described is the technique people use to learn to play from lead sheets (fake books) and is very common for playing non-classical (i.e. POP music). The fact that you have already learned to play a large variety of chords and can fluently read single line melody on the trebble cleff means that you are well on your way to some great keyboarding!!! If you played on an arranger keyboard instead of a Piano then you would already be making some amazing music but if the piano is your goal then your next step is to learn some rhythmic patterns for the left hand.

Think of your left hand being the bass player and your right hand being vocals. Obviously a Bass player could just plunk a single note every time there was a chord change but this would be boring. A good Bassist will play the notes of a chord using a rhythmic style suitable to the music that is being played. There are many different patterns, riffs and runs that can be learned (think in the hundreds) and they can be mixed and matched to produce truely musical accominaments to your right hand melody.

To get you started, here are some references:

"How to Play from a Fake Book" by Blake Neely. You already have these skills but it is a starting point for people new to this style of playing.

"The POP Piano Book" by Mark Harrison. This is the grandady of books for playing POP music. There are a number of different patterns included throughout the book but this volume has so much more to offer.

"100 ultimate Jazz Riffs", "100 Ultimate Blues Riffs for Piano/Keyboards" both by Andrew D. Gordon. These volumes include not only left hand patterns by right hand riffs and fill that can make your basic single note melodies really come alive.

"Mel Bay's Complete Book of Improvisation, Fills & Chord Progressions" by Gail Smith is an outstanding volume that will help with just about every aspect of your POP playing including left hand patterns.

John Axsom has collected a number of piano patterns that he sells on CD (PDF format) from his web site: http://users.wireweb.net/green/pianolessons.htm

"Pattern Piano and Keyboard" by David Sprunger is a video/book combination that teaches the basics of chord patterns to play accompinament to a vocalist. David has an amazing voice himself which makes the video lessons very interesting and inspiring. The book includes many patterns and he teaches how to put them together in a way that is very pleasing. His instructions assume no skills with reading music so is VERY good for the absolute beginner. http://www.PlayPianoTODAY.com/

This should get you going.

Cheers,

Rodney

#986913 - 12/29/04 11:18 AM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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Posts: 55
footom Offline
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Thank you all for the great info. Looks like I have a lot to work with even after one day of life on this topic. Now it's up to me to make it a reality.

I appreciate the encouragement, the suggestions for books, and the specific hints.

I'm just a fledgling member of Pianoworld, but I am so glad I found this forum.

I will welcome and sincerely appreciate any further hints or suggestions. Thanks all for the generous Christmas present!

#986914 - 12/29/04 12:37 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
Joined: Jul 2004
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Welcome Footom! I wish, like Pianorocker and apple*, that I had all my chords memorized.

Whaddya think folks.. Bach's Two Part Inventions?

Clement Sonatina Op 36 No 1?


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
#986915 - 01/02/05 07:06 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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Posts: 55
footom Offline
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Hello all. Just to update anyone interested in this topic and this individual's progress...
Thanks to some books I've purchased, guided by Rodney, and tips from Markb and mound, and encouragement from BobMuir and apple*, I've already taken it up a notch. I'm playing chords and inversions with my right hand, and bass notes and run-ups on the left. I know I'm just scratching the surface, but it feels great to make progress, and elevate my playing out of a 40-year rut!

#986916 - 01/02/05 07:20 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
apple* Offline
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Kansas
I think since you already know the chords you ought to practice arpeggios - just for fun.. If you practiced them with you left hand, you could add a little melody with your right...just for fun.

Glad to know you are working at it.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#986917 - 01/02/05 07:33 PM Re: I'm playing guitar on the piano; I'd like to play piano on the piano.  
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footom Offline
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Wow, apple*, are you psychic? I just spilled out my heart and soul to prospective teachers on the Juilliard website, e-mailing them of my abilities and limitations, and a few have replied back already, suggesting I practice different arpeggio rechniques. Guess I know what to emphasize now. I feel like a larva on its way to becoming a butterfly!


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