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#981014 - 04/30/08 04:53 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Kathleen - to be fair to the wretched Galop, Chopin never meant it to see the light of day. He would be mortified that it is being heard and discussed now - I wonder if he wrote it as a joke?

BTW isn't it your 45th wedding anniversary soon? How is Mr Kathleen keeping these days?

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#981015 - 04/30/08 05:02 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Maybe it was a Liszt parody?


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#981016 - 04/30/08 08:47 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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I don't care for Chopin's Galop either, and wonder if there's something inherently homely about that particular genre. I guess it's all in the ear of the beholder, but I wonder if any composer managed to write an attractive Galop. Even the visual image of a dance form based on galloping, stylized or not, isn't very appealing.

And MR's statement echoes how I feel about Liszt's Grand Galop Chromatique! It would be funny if Chopin felt the same way and his essay in this form were satire, but I have a hunch that the composition date of Chopin's would make this unlikely. (I could be wrong, but it sure looks like an item of juvenilia.)

If anyone gets around to having a look at out the transcriptions I listed, I'd be interested in your reactions. I haven't printed any of them out, but I have a few observations to share from glancing through them online:
  • Kalkbrenner's and Méreaux's pieces are both quite extended takes on two of Chopin's most popular Mazurkas, complete with introductions and finales to bookend the theme-and-variations format. I wonder if they were well-received recital pieces once upon a time when fantasia-style paraphrases were more popular.
  • Tausig's reworking of the Concerto in e minor surprised me, as I hadn't quite comprehended that he did, indeed, reorchestrate the entire piece! I knew that he altered the closing of the first movement to end with a bravura octave passage by the soloist (there's a footnote to that effect in my score published by Schirmer), but the changes go considerably beyond that.
  • The variant by Liszt on a portion of the finale of Chopin's Sonata Op. 58 (not "Variants" as in my original post) is actually a single extended ossia for bars 207 through 253—the musical climax of this movement. Liszt does something quite striking here starting at measure 246: The pattern of the figuration in these peak measures changes abruptly to repeated chords like those in the climactic passages near the ends of Ballade Op. 47 and the Polonaise-Fantaisie.

Isn't it curious that Liszt, in his own arrangement of Chopin's music, would choose here to incorporate a device that seems to be borrowed from Chopin's own oeuvre rather than something, well, more spectacularly Lisztian? wink

I don't know how Liszt's climactic chords would sound in performance, but they seem on paper to disrupt the momentum—at precisely the wrong moment—of Chopin's galloping rhythm that drives the main theme throughout this vigorous and exciting finale.

Oops—maybe "galloping" isn't the right word. :p

Steven

p.s. Thanks for the hearty rewelcome.

#981017 - 05/01/08 07:29 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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MaryRose: Is there nothing that escapes your thoughtful and all-encompassing mind? smile

(I laugh every time I think of that post you wrote when we were in Washington about Hershey and I having some kind of romantic tryst. Of course at the time I was embarassed to the point of hysteria eek [ask Frycek]. Isn't it wonderful how we can see the humor in things after the passage of time? I recall saying to Frycek that you were a "little devil." A sweet and talented one, but still a devil.) laugh

Yes, Mr. Kathleen and I will be celebrating our 45th in a few days. I will have to shame him because he always forgets, and now I can tell him that even a dear friend heart on my precious ABF remembered. He is doing very well and feels just fine. No need for dialysis yet, and we will find out tomorrow if he has to go back on chemo. It is a 2 month on and 2 month off thing, and he suffers no ill effects. He watches TV for 4 hours and even gets a nice lunch. So....Thank you, dear heart, for your kindness.

Yes, I probably would agree that Chopin would turn red with shame frown if he knew his Galop was still out there. We are all allowed a few real whoppers in life...even geniuses.

Steven: Wow...now you know why we missed you! You always give us so much to delve into and to ponder. I do not have the time now to give justice to your post, but I promise I will later in the day. Once again...so good to have you back.

My best to all on this beautiful spring day,
Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
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#981018 - 05/01/08 08:26 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Quote
Originally posted by sotto voce:
It would be funny if Chopin felt the same way and his essay in this form were satire, but I have a hunch that the composition date of Chopin's would make this unlikely. (I could be wrong, but it sure looks like an item of juvenilia.)
Hey, Frycek and Sotto Voce, you might be onto something because Liszt's work dates from 1838 and Chopin wrote his Galop in 1846.

#981019 - 05/01/08 08:28 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Quote
Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:
He is doing very well and feels just fine. No need for dialysis yet, and we will find out tomorrow if he has to go back on chemo. It is a 2 month on and 2 month off thing, and he suffers no ill effects. He watches TV for 4 hours and even gets a nice lunch.
Well, that is good news indeed, Kathleen. I was quite afraid to ask how Glen's getting on but now I am glad I did. I hope you both have a really good day on your anniversary (after you have reminded him!)

#981020 - 05/01/08 01:51 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Quote
Quote fom MaryRose
(after you have reminded him!)

laugh laugh laugh

Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
#981021 - 05/01/08 08:23 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Kathleen,
Here's wishing you and Mr. loveschopintoomuch a very very happy anniversary, plus many more to come!! May you have the most delightful Spring day and lots of Chopin music!! smile

#981022 - 05/02/08 02:03 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Happy Anniversary Kathleen and Glenn, and hopefully many more.


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#981023 - 05/02/08 02:22 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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I am lucky then that I am passing by today to wish Kathleen and Glenn a happy anniversary. smile

By the way, I asked a question that got lost somewhere .. what are your favorite renditions of Sonata No.3?

By the way, anyone knows why Chopin did not have many photos of him taken, like Liszt? We only have one photo!!

Quote

I read that Zimerman's recording of the two concerti are superb, and I plan on ordering them very soon.
Which one, the older or the newer one? I do not have an affinity with the new one, although it comes highly recommended, but the old one is safe. I reviewed it here .
But ( the new one ) is a new and innovative approach so everyone is entitled to give it a listen just for the freshness.

#981024 - 05/02/08 03:26 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Quote
Originally posted by Bassio:

By the way, anyone knows why Chopin did not have many photos of him taken, like Liszt? We only have one photo!!
Actually we have two photographic likenesses and I'll post the less known one when I get home from work. As for why Chopin had so few taken, he just didn't live long enough. As far as I know there are only two photographic likenesses of Liszt that antedate 1849 either. Later on Liszt got quite blase about having his picture taken. As he aged photography became more and more popular and everyone wanted to have his picture or his picture taken with them. And he was usually obliging (but probably quite bored by it all by then).

OK, here's the other one of Chopin. This is a photograph of a deteriorated 1846 daguerreotype that was in the State Museum in Warsaw. The original, along with the original of the more familiar overcoat photograph, was destroyed during WWII. Note that in this one as well Chopin's lips are slightly parted. This is a symptom of cor pulmonale (a type of heart failure consequence of his damaged lungs)- chronic shortness of breath even at rest.

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#981025 - 05/03/08 04:12 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Slightly OT - I came across this lovely old Polish song on YouTube:

O MÓJ ROZMARYNIE

Zal personified I would say.

#981026 - 05/03/08 08:03 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Thank you all for the anniversary greetings. We have had a super week. Glen got a great prognosis from both his heart and cancer doctor. And it looks like dialysis won't be in the picture anytime soon, if at all. So we are exceedingly grateful and relieved and blessed.

Hi Bassio: Sorry I didn't answer your question about the sonata. I am hardly the person to give a qualifying response, since I only have two recordings of it...Rubinstein and Ashkenazy. They both sound wonderful to me, but what do I know. As far as Zimerman's recordings, I have yet to purchase the CD's. Yes, I have read he is quite innovative and that seems to make his interpretations quite amazing and popular.

Thanks, Frycek, for that other photo of Chopin. I forget about it and thought the other one was the only one. It is hard to imagine that the photos of Liszt as he got older are of the same man when compared to those when he was younger. eek True, we all look better when we're younger (well, most of us), but Liszt's older photos bear no resemblemce to him at all as a young man, except for the long hair. :p

MaryRose: I look forward to listening to the Polish tune as soon as you-tube is up and working.


Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
#981027 - 05/03/08 08:18 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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We "oldies" miss Hershey Felder very much. To you "newbies," Hershey is our resident celeb, who was a regular poster on this thread for many months last year. We have had so much fun with him, and he was a wealth of information about Chopin.

Anyhow, here is a write-up of the last part of his trilogy. Hhe is opening in San Diego TODAY! What I wouldn't give to fly out to see him. But I would have to mortgage the house to afford the plane fare. So I will wait until he comes to my area.

Herhsey, if you are reading this, know that we all wish you the greatest success with "Beethoven." Please send us the reviews as you used to do. We'd love to read them.

****************************

Beethoven, As I Knew Him text by Hershey Felder, music by Beethoven, starring pianist-actor Hershey Felder, directed by Joel Zwick. Aug. 19-Oct. 12. "Award-winning performer Hershey Felder returns to the Geffen Playhouse for the highly anticipated culmination of his musical trilogy. Felder brings the character of Ludwig van Beethoven to life through the eyes of Beethoven's last surviving friend as well as through the eternal sounds of the maestro's greatest musical works." Felder, now world-famous for his lauded portrayals of George Gershwin, Fryderyk Chopin and Beethoven, returns to the Geffen after his sold-out run of George Gershwin Alone and Monsieur Chopin last summer. The productions received twelve LA Ovation Award nominations and won four awards, including Best Musical and Best Lead Actor in a Musical.

[Linked Image]

(Can you believe this is Hershey? WOW!)

********************

Miss you lots,
Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
#981028 - 05/03/08 03:44 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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I just can't imagine him as Beethoven. He made an excellent Chopin and Gershwin though, in spite of them being quite different. I wonder if he has forced himself to put on a lot of weight?

#981029 - 05/03/08 07:13 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Hello, all—

Thank you, Steven, for the directions to the Henselt Library, and nice to meet you!

I guess I wasn’t as put off by the “Galopp Marquis” as those who have written; it’s not much of a piece, but not much different from a lot of piano music intended for students, not really offensive or anything. I think hearing it up to tempo would help? If it was written in 1846 (Mary-Rose, how did you find that information?), it must have referred to Chopin’s canine friend Marquis. Maybe I like the piece better because I like the thought of the little white dog. It’s not that I uncritically love everything he wrote. (The piece that is most completely unlistenable for me is the “3rd concerto,” the Allegro de concert.)

The “Album Leaf” can also be found in two Alfred publications: “At the Piano with Chopin” edited by Maurice Hinson, and “Chopin: An Introduction to His Piano Works” edited by Willard A. Palmer. Both editors are formidable, and I suppose that most or all of you are already familiar with them, and probably with these books. In the Hinson edition, this piece is given as simply “Sostenuto”; Palmer says that the discoverer, Dr. Jacques Chailley of the Paris Conservatoire, added the title “Album Leaf.” The album belonged to Chopin’s friend and student Emile Gaillard, about whom I know absolutely nothing.

In the edition included in the Henselt Library, a grace note is missing in the left hand of measure 23. There should be a low B flat at the beginning of the measure, as in measure 19.
The two books mentioned above contain a number of short, intermediate-level pieces that I have not seen anywhere else. These include a polonaise from age 7, a mazurka from age 10, a lovely nocturne-like Cantabile (KK IVb/6), two sad and lyrical waltzes that are easier than the more familiar ones, and more. There is a mazurka (KK IVb/1 from 1832) and a contredanse (KK Anh. Ia/4, written for Tytus in probably 1827) that contain sections that strike me as strange and incomprehensible. They must have sounded better when he played them….

The cover of “At the Piano with Chopin” also contains one of the very worst portraits of our friend—so awful I’ve covered the book with wrapping paper.

Stuck inside the book is an ad for a book and CD for students, containing may of the same pieces, entitled “Falling in Love with Chopin.” It begins, "Do You Remember the Day You Fell In Love With Chopin's Music?" I don't think other composers are spoken of in this way, "falling in love." It always amazes me.

About the Tausig reorchestration of the concerti (I think it was both of them), I’ve tried to figure out what version was used on the various recordings in my possession, but it’s unclear, and none of the liner notes say anything about it. So I don’t know if we have been hearing Chopin’s orchestration, Tausig’s, something in between, or I don’t know what else. In hopes of untangling this question, I bought a copy of John Rink’s book, “Chopin: The Piano Concertos.” It wasn’t all that helpful, especially since it is written in a hyperscholarly and almost painful style. I was left only with the understanding that different instrumentations could be used for different circumstances. Chopin comes under fire for the thinness of his instrumentation and for the fact that the orchestra carries so little of the musical weight of the concerti, but from what I read, it wasn’t unusual for piano concerti to be played as solos, and they also were often performed with small chamber ensembles rather than full orchestras. One used whatever forces were available. So there is not one “real” version of the concerti; Chopin himself worked with different incarnations of these pieces.
But if anyone can enlighten me further about what we are hearing on recordings of the concerti, I would appreciate it.


The photo Frycek posted, even though it is so badly damaged, seems so much more alive than the familiar one from 1849. It also seems to me emblematic of the elusiveness of this man, the way we perceive him through veils and shadows, in flashes, never quite clearly, and rarely as a whole.

Bassio: Favorite recording of the 3rd sonata? How about Yundi Li? It’s on his “Chopin Recital” album, from 2001, when he was still in his teens.

Elene

#981030 - 05/03/08 07:15 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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I forgot to say-- I'm glad Glen is doing well!

Elene again

#981031 - 05/03/08 07:17 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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And oops again-- "Falling in Love with Chopin" is simply a recording of all the pieces in "Chopin: An Introduction to His Piano Works."

#981032 - 05/03/08 11:55 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Elene - I got the date of the Galop from my recording of it, in a boxed set of all of Chopin's works. It includes quite extensive booklets with notes by Jeremy Siepmann. The other works you mention - Gaillard album leaf, Contredanse etc - are included in the recordings too.

When I have been to performances of Chopin's concerti they always use a very small orchestra. If other works have been performed in the concert, usually half the orchestra walks off for a coffee break. We are going to another on 23rd May, with a 'child prodigy' performing on the piano.

Benjamin Grosvenor

I have no idea what he's like.

#981033 - 05/04/08 03:34 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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I'm afraid that-- gasp-- I don't have a boxed set of all of Chopin's works! I have an old set of LPs that says on the box that it's complete, but it's nowhere near. So I am missing recordings of some of those obscure pieces. Which set do you have, Mary-Rose? Ashkenazy? Biret? Someone else I can't remember? Anyone have recommendations?

It freaks me out that somebody could manage to record ALL of Chopin. I think Chopin himself might have a hard time doing that (mostly because he would keep redoing parts and not be able to decide how he finally wanted them). A few years ago, someone was planning to record all of Liszt, a far more unbelievably huge project. I don't know if he succeeded.

Elene

#981034 - 05/04/08 09:19 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Elene: I think getting Ashkenazy box set is very reasonable. He is mature, distanced, well-thought and of course well-played. Very balanced I would say. There is no piece he played wrong.

I chose the path to have almost full (no orchestral works!) Chopin of Ashkenazy, and then buy recordings of particular pieces or sets from other performers.

As for others, apart from boxed Ashkenazy, it is worth looking at:

- Maurizio Pollini for Etudes (he is GOD!)
- Boris Berezovsky for Etudes (really hard to get)
- Ivan Moravec, Claudio Arrau, Maurizio Pollini, Maria Joao Pires for Nocturnes
- Krystian Zimerman for Ballades
- Krystian Zimerman for Piano Concertos

I would, for the moment, wait with buying Artur Rubinsteins recordings. They are great, outstanding really. Noone played Chopin like him. They are being remastered right now one after one. though. It wouldn't be wise to buy a complete box set now with old noisy scratchy recordings, as new and refreshed are coming up along.

My 0.02$ smile


Mateusz


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#981035 - 05/04/08 09:57 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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I would add Dinu Lipatti for the waltzes.


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#981036 - 05/04/08 10:05 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Thanks! I'm very happy to hear your recommendation. I am looking for waltzes and had no idea which one to look at, apart from Rubinstein's.


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#981037 - 05/04/08 10:29 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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If you haven't heard Dinu Lipatti's early 1950 recording of the 14 Waltzes, prepare to be astonished.

It's by far the finest performance of them that I've ever heard.

The CD is legendary:

Chopin Waltzes Lipatti


Mel


"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn
#981038 - 05/04/08 12:27 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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I have listened to the samples at Amazon and already bookmarked the CD to be my first buy in next shot. The waltzes are simply beautiful - pure poetry from the piano! Thanks smile I can't wait to get the CD. It is, fortunately, available in Poland, so I won't have to buy from Amazon. I have bad memories about ordering from Amazon... and I'm unhappy because of that, as I'd love to get Ivan Moravec Nocturnes too.


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#981039 - 05/04/08 06:14 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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Quote
Originally posted by Elene:
Which set do you have, Mary-Rose? Ashkenazy? Biret? Someone else I can't remember? Anyone have recommendations?

It freaks me out that somebody could manage to record ALL of Chopin.
The set I have is this one

I don't particularly recommend it musically, but the presentation and information is terrific and at least one knows one has [nearly] everything Chopin composed, including the *&!£$% Galop. laugh Lots of artists are represented.

My personal favourite living exponent of Chopin is Angela Lear, who devotes herself entirely to his works and yes, she does know them all inside out. The entire oevre.

#981040 - 05/07/08 06:43 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
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loveschopintoomuch Offline
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loveschopintoomuch  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,696
Illinois
Hi All:

I've been busy out in the yard. The weather has FINALLY turned spring-like.

I got my Ipod today and can't wait to load it up with Chopin.

I was reminded of this etude by our hero....and for about the 1,000th time fell in love with him all over again.

Every time I think he can't possibly outdo himself, he ALWAYS does.

MaryRose: Hershey mentioned that he was going to wear a "fat-suit" for Beethoven. Right after Beethoven, he's doing Gershwin and Chopin, so poor Hershey still won't be able to indulge in his favorite French food.

Cheers to all,
Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
#981041 - 05/07/08 06:54 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,428
Mary-Rose Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mary-Rose  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,428
Essex, England
I wish I could buy a thin-suit :~(

#981042 - 05/07/08 10:43 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,899
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member
LisztAddict  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,899
Florida
You cannot imagine how difficult it is to find thin-suit. eek

#981043 - 05/08/08 06:58 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 507
Chardonnay Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chardonnay  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 507
Boston, MA.
I found one, but I couldn't fit into it! laugh

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