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Of course Chopin could sing (not the Pavarotti kind , though - but a church singer is something completely different from that "in-love-with-your-own-voice" opera-style...)
I am sure he could also dance - his Waltzes, Nocturnes, Polonaises and Mazurkas are not "concert-music" - it is "dwellings for people" to take part in as a singer or dancer - but with the piano as your instrument.

I am really sorry that Chopin did not write a "Polish Oratorium" - as a singer I would have been so grateful to be in choir performing it.
I think the right time for composing an oratorium never came to Chopin, he did not live that long.

Maryrose - I am happy to hear about your concert-experience - thank you for sharing, wish I could have been there too !
The way live playing of Chopin's music still affect peoples life to a great extent is the proof of his genious - the scale of his production is not what's important.

And Hershey - I'm waiting for the photos and your thoughts about the "steady beat" in Chopin-playing..

Ragnhild

Ah - the steady beat - the tempo rubato of Chopin....

Liszt's description of a tree in the wind always fascinated me, especially with Lenz's report of Myerbeer's intrusion on their lesson of the C+ Mazurka. The difficult I have with understanding the idea of the solid bass beat is that if that were the case, Meyerbeer could have never counted 2/4 in any which way shapr or form. I think the notion of rubato of the sort Liszt discusses is with regard to the cantabile sections accompanied by underlying harmonic movement in the bass. In this case, I can absolutely understand (and often attempt myself) the kind of rubato Chopin was famous for - the steady left hand (think 9/2, with it's guitar plucking left hand... or a chorus of guitars, as he is reported to have said...with the melody singing away up top, but not placed exactly on 1-2-3-4 etc, but simply floating above the left hand in the "neighborhood..." If one tries it, it is extremely effective, though we are not used to this kiind of playing today... Padarewski did it often enough, and we consider it bad playing. I kind of like it.

In terms of doing such things with say, passages that move quickly, somehow, I don't think so. If they rely on intense rhythm for effect (think 25/11) how on earth would you, or whyw ould you mess with the right hand? I think the rubato itself is specifically for places of accompanied melody, and always tastefully. As far as the mazurka rubato, or the poloanise rubato, that is, by Chopin's own admission, after a fashion, where the style of the way it is danced in Poland, gives it a strange push and pull feeling, but boy, does it feel Polish!

As for the pictures... soon soon... I've been swamped with a bit of Beethoven...

Hersh

Chopin danced (and ice skated too) when he was a teenager and still had the breath for it. In a letter to his friend Tytus he confesses to dancing the mazurka with a girl that Tytus apparently had his eye on. To paraphrase: " I told her I'd tell you she made me dance with her. She told me 'Tell Tytus I'm not afraid of him!'"

I can picture him, ice-skating, with a scarf....Lazienki park maybe.. ??

Ragnhild

A scarf, and fur mittens and hat, and fur-lined boots. His Mama would have wrapped him up warm

MaryRose: If you haven't read Rubinstein's autobiographies (actually two of them...one...My Younger Years and the other, I think, My Life), you just HAVE to. Between the two books there are over 1,000 pages! I couldn't remember enough of my life to write 10 pages!!

I've just started on the first. I'm up to page 20. (I may not finish until the 4th of July at the rate I'm going). It takes me about 20 minutes to read one page because he is such a name-dropper, but also writes a lot about the history of the time, and has some extremely humorous stories to relate about some of the big names from every conceivable walk of life. He goes into his emotional state also. I think he met everyone in the world by the time he was 12. At least, he certainly give this impression. Very very interesting and entertaining AND educational reading. I highly recommend them to any Rubinstein lover and even those who may be interested in this "one-of-a-kind" genius. What a lovable character he was.

Kathleen

I'm afraid I haven't read Rubinstein's autobiographies, Kasha, but I will add them to my wishlist. I agree that he was a very charming and lovable man.

Hi Hersh:

I just remembered that I bought tickets for our city's orchestra's (a quite fine one) production of a "Beethoven Festival" way back last September for this April. It's for 3 nights.

Alon Goldstein will be playing Beethoven Piano Concertos 1&2 on one night, 3&4 on the next night and then #5 three nights later.

I have no idea who Alon Goldstein is. But the price was right. $60 total for all 3 nights and I have a great seat, Row E, seat 7...which is off to the left. I guess I had better see if the library has these concertos. I only have Beethoven's sonatas.

Which of the 5 do you favor the most?

Thanks,
Kathleen

Hi K -

This week, I am making my way through 5 - Emperor. You know, Beethoven was so wise - such an entertainer when he needed to be one. The work is so grand, so noble, and that second movement! There is nothing in the world like it... it is SO human. Likely that this concerto will make its way into the production. As far as the concerti - Karl Engel, with whom I studied, just in masterclass form, announced during our lesson on the final mvt. of the first concerto that "this is Beethoven at his MOST VULGAR." And then he gave a HUGE smile. He loved it to be that way... very funny.

You will get so much out the performances of these concerti - they are really tremendous - entertainment pieces. You can buy the Dover full score in one collection - worth the price - not a whole lot, and good to have, and good to study.

To connect Chopin to Beethoven, all one must do is look into Delacroix's diary - it really is amusing to see Chopin railing against Beethoven whose music he simply didn't understand. But then Delacroix reported from Nohant that Chopin played a tremendous op. 26...

Delacroix also wrote about Beethoven (I quote from memory) "Sublime passages side by side with the banal" - which is how I always feel about him.

Maryrose...

Interesting about Beethoven, and Delacroix's observation. It's what makes Beethoven so remarkably human to me... the choral movement - a hymn unto mankind... and now... let's have a turkish march... but I adore that. Many have viewed it as a failing. And I can only imagine in Chopin's and Delacroix's time - striving for perfection in Art and expression, that not only would such an example (and many others like it) seem needy, sloppy, lazy, unfinished, pandering.. etc. but it would reflect the inability of the artist to maintain the level of godliness... and as I am now exploring Beethoven's character, it's one of the things that I adore about him... the combination of the sublime and the banal, side by side - just like life.

Hi Hersh: What an undertaking on the 5th concerto! We would love to hear you play it when you feel it's "yours."

Beethoven is my seond favorite composer. I've read a couple of his bios and found him more complicated and interesting than even our "hero." His range was phenomenal. I have a funny true story.

I treated my sister a few years ago to hear his 9th. Of course, everyone looks forward to the last movement. But I was enchanted by the first 4 notes of the second. I turned to my sister to whisper to her how exquisite it was, and she was sleeping. Not only that...snoring!!

But then I once attended a performance of Chopin's E minor concerto. During the Romance section, the man next to me was actually sobbing! : Luckily, I had a few tissues to hand him. Perhaps his wife had died recently. Who knows? But I know he was Polish because he said thank you in Polish.

Isn't it strange how music affects (or doesn't, for that matter), people.

Everyone loves the movie "Immortal Beloved." How much of it rings true?? In your opinion, Hersh.

Now off to the library and a piano lesson. It's -15 degrees here with the wind factor, and my little Bischon loves this weather. I can't get her in and have to run around the back way chasing her.

to all,
Kathleen

ooopppsssss!

Do any of you play duets? I did at school, but never since. Chopin enjoyed duets from time to time. What an honour it must have been to have played alongside him! Perhaps the most formidable occasion would have been when he accompanied the young Filtsch in his own concerto, with Chopin playing the orchestral part on a second piano.

He also liked to play duets with one of his pupils, Countess Elise Petruzzi, who was good at sight-reading and improvisation. Sometimes they would sit at the keyboard and improvise dialogue at the piano in the form of musical questions and answers. I wonder what those questions were...

That sounds so charming ...the question and answer part.

As far as what the questions might have been...that just might be an interesting discussion topic.

If you (anyone) and Chopin were performing such a duet, what would your question be to Chopin and what to you think he might answer. (Of course, this is being done musically, but use your imagination and see what you can come up with, verbally.)

I would "ask" Chopin: "Are you happy today, sir?"

He would answer: "Yes, because I am enjoying our lesson so much."

Kathleen

Young Chopin also sometimes played duets with his sister Ludwicka, and his friend Tytus.

And, we all know, of course...that when he played them with Liszt, he always insisted on playing the bass.

I know I read why once, but I can't seem to remember. I think it was because the bass had more to it (normally) that the treble. And he didn't want Liszt drowining him out (as he could/would probably do, when given the chance.)

MR: The only time I've play a duet is when playing Chopsticks or Heart And Soul. I think I would have a real problem playing any now. I have my "own" sense of tempo, pretty much like my own sense of pedaling, etc.

However, it certainly be an excellent idea if I could find someone with whom to play. It would do alot to tighten up my playing.

I know chamber music is excellent for that, but yawn...that kind of music is so BORING!

Kathleen

When Chopin was in Vienna, he played duets with Beethoven's favorite student and Liszt's teacher, Carl Czerny.

Many people aren't familiar with Czerny's wonderful compositions, other than his Studies.

His Grande Sonate Brillante in C minor, for piano 4 hands is an absolutely gorgeous masterpiece.

Didn't Chopin also play duets with Alkan, his good friend and next door neighbor in Paris?

Mel

RE: Musical "question and answer"

I think that this is probably, the traditional notion of question and answer in the music itself...as in a Bach Fugue...or to simplify, play just above middle C, - E,D,E,F,G - and then with the left hand in the bass, the answer... E,F,E,D,C.

Chopin also played duets with Solange, and as Sand played as well, I can only imagine he played with her too, I have a copy of one of her early manuscripts for musical study. Music and musical education was so important to everyone.

Kathleen re: Immortal Beloved... I enjoyed it... it's a lovely fantasy, and wonderfully shmaltzy. True? Not when it comes to any verifiable knowledge we have.. but so what. It's a movie - an entertainment, which is meant to entertain, and for me, it did that.

Oh, and as it turns out, I heard from the Polish Ambassador's office. Indeed, M. Chopin will give a command performance at the Embassy the last weekened of April.

Maryrose:
I have played some very simple duets just for practicing with my daughter - it is at least double the fun of playing alone...

At last years christmas concert Mr Andsnes and his sister played a Mozart-sonata together - It was really strange to watch because they looked like twins or copys - they had the almost exactly thesame "body language"...
(oops, I had promised myself not to mention him again...)

I'm still looking for the "man in my life" to come and play duets with me ....I guess he will never turn up, as he probably does not exist

Apart from that I agree with Kathleen - you are great people - love you all (and Beethoven..)!


Hey, I forgot one thing I don't agree with everything, Kathleen:
How can you say that - chamber music is NOT AT ALL BORING - my problem when I hear it is that I feel so jealous of the musicians..

And congratulations to Mr Chopin !

Ragnhild