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A little on the side again, but I will try to translate some words by a man who looked upon himself as a "miniaturist" , Edvard Grieg :

"Composers like Bach and Beethoven have built cathedrals and castles on the hills. I wanted (like Ibsen express in his last plays) to build dwellings for people, where they can feel at home and happy !"

And that might be just as important...

Thank you for the nice comments on my Nocturne-playing (it really is a sweet one), but Kathleen I will never teach playing-technique to anybody because mine is real bad.

A question on Chopin and his metronome.

A quote from wikipedia:

"Frédéric Chopin used a strict form of rubato in some of his pieces: the left hand was to be played at the exact tempo of the piece, while the right hand was to be played freely, with rubato."

I've read often (not just on wiki!) that the metronome never left his piano and he was very strict with himself and his students about keeping an even timing with his left hand. My question is, did he make an exception for playing certain pieces such as his nocturnes? - it seems to me that rubato must be used to give meaning to many phrases in his nocturnes (the 27-2 for example) not only in the right hand but even more so in the left and every professional recording I've heard of the 27-2, the pianist seems to let the right hand dictate the tempo at the expense of it being kept in the left. Any thoughts on this?

What the wiki said is almost exactly the same as what Liszt said about Chopin's playing. Liszt admired Chopin tremendously and was fond of him in spite of their sometimes difficult friendship. Liszt famously compared Chopin's use of rubato as the wind blowing the trees. The tree limbs (the left hand) sway in strict time to the wind, the leaves (the right hand) are free to flutter as they will. Any contemporary account of Chopin's playing echoes this, and his use of the metronome.

I am not at all the right person to answer your question, Stephenc , but I have asked myself the same .

Playing the Nocturne Op 32.1 with a metronome sounds just terrible - I've tried. I have chosen to let the melodi sing and the LH follow it (If I'm completely off-beat some places it's because I'm stumbling ). The closest I come to Chopin's Nocturnes is (believe it or not..) Norwegian religous folk tunes - and they are sung with fermatas that are not in the score. I have never heard a Nocturne played with a "metronomic" beat.

I think this really is a question for Hershey....

Definitely, and about I'd also like to hear what he had to say re Chopin as Romantic composer (or not).

What interesting topics we are indulging in today! I have often thought about rubato in the performance of Chopin. I believe he used a lot less than we'd imagine. We have become used to rubato in certain places - in the Nocturnes mentioned for example - until they sound "wrong" without. I am quite sure that there was NOTHING mechanical about Chopin's playing. I would think his metronome was mainly for the use of pupils. It's sometimes easy to lay on thick rubato in an attempt to sound more "emotional". It takes very subtle skills to make some of his works as effective with less rubato, and with rubato only in the right hand.

If you listen to the delicate playing of Angela Lear, for example, she is very frugal indeed with rubato and you can often hear her using it in the RH but not the left. She is a great Chopin scholar. And no, she's not my sister and I don't actually know her - I just happen to believe in her as she has devoted her life to the study of Chopin's original manuscripts etc ;-)

thats a very nice analogy from Liszt that you've mentioned Frycek, it certainly helps to visualise his playing. Like Nancy metioned, i've also tried playing what I know of a couple of his nocturnes and it is terribly difficult to give them structure that Chopin would surely have intended.
That said, I think what maryrose said is a good point "It takes very subtle skills to make some of his works as effective with less rubato, and with rubato only in the right hand". Maybe if I was a more advanced pianist it wouldn't seem so impossible to play Chopin in strict time but still be expressive. Thanks also for the tip on Angela Lear maryrose - she has some wonderful samples on her website ( http://www.angelalear.co.uk/ ) to listen to, yet another wonderful pianist that is devoted to Chopin to enjoy! Do you have some of her CD's - i noticed in some of her samples she adds some improvisation which I hear Chopin was famous for "he never played the same piece the same way twice".

Yikes, playing Chopin with a metronome!! That's akin to putting mustard on a hot fudge sundae.

Seriously, it's all I can do to drag out this little black monster, when doing Hanon. And only then for a minute or so to get the tempo in my head. Then I shut it off and hide it in the bench. And the only reason I'm doing Hanon at this stage of my life is that I know I have to strengthen my left hand, especially fingers 4/5.

Chopin was very adamant that his students learn all the basics. Theory, scales, chords and correct tempi, etc. But I don't think he spent much time with them teaching this. I believe he might have expected them to practice the aforementioned on their own.

Please don't get me wrong. I do think that learning to play Chopin (or any composer) in the manner in which the composer intended (if we can figure that out) is important. But, I do love knowing that "Chopin never played the same piece the same way twice." Who does? Who can?

I think we can drive ourselves a little crazy in our attempt to play "it" just right. Just right, according to whom or what??

How many times have we discussed the different transcriptions out there? How some publishers/relatives/friends would insert or even erase certain notes and put in all kinds of markings, like pedaling or phrasing, etc. We know Bach never put one single marking in all of his music. Yet many argue on how he is to be played? Based on what? I onced listened to Glenn Gould play Bach's wonderful Prelude in C. Was this man in his right mind?? Yes, supposedly. And many think he was a genius. How could I argue with his interpretation? We all hear it differently. And his way was CERTAINLY different.

And Chopin didn't exactly fill his music with all kinds of "directions and instructions." Maybe, just maybe...he expected us to use our common sense and knowledge of music, in general, and then play his music, putting "our soul into it." I believe I also read that he said something like, play it the way you feel it.

My Gosh, I never pay attention to the pedal markings on his music. I just use my inner voice on when "I" think I should use it. When the music starts sounding muddy, I take my foot off the pedal.

What all this is leading up to...and I do have a point here, really. If you are a serious student of the piano or if you plan on making a career on the concert stage, then, yes, of course, you MUST play the music as written, using your own individual inner voice to add your personal touch to the piece. The critics will eat you alive if you don't.

However, if you are like me (Lord, I hope you're not), a senior who just wants to play Chopin the way she hears him (perhaps from all the Rubinstein recordings I've listened to), then all the fuss about using the "original" transcription, pedaling, markings, rubato and the rest really doesn't matter much.

Again, I am, in no way, minimizing the importance of respecting the composer and doing your very best to do justice to his music. I'm just saying that, depending on your goals...(and your age!!), shortcuts and lots of leaway are permissible.

Kathleen

Originally posted by Kathleen:

I'm afraid I am - more or less - like you, I mean.
I think you have just spelled out the privilege of being an amateur (In the true meaning of the word amateur "someone who loves it" )

But I'd still like an opinion from Hershey who might have a different view...

Ragnhild

Issue of Chopin the miniaturist:
IMO Chopin composed a lot of small pieces, but the emotion in these pieces suffice to make many of them masterpieces of the instrument. Plus his ability to condense the emotion into smaller more concise pieces makes him more of a genius imo. Rachmaninoff himself believed that and pointed to that as he went towards brevity in his later works.

Besides, we must not forget that he composed 3 sonatas and 2 piano concertos, here are really long pieces. 2 of the sonatas plus the concertos are a staple in the repertoire. No more evidence needed. So I guess this issue is solved!

Issue of Chopin's weak orchestral writing:
Very interesting the remark about that he composed these in his youth, I almost forgot that. But I have to say that the orchestral parts are directly influenced (DIRECTLY) by Mozart's. I am not sure, but this is my opinion, I always had that impression. And once the piano enters, you now know who's the composer! So yes the orchestral parts are weaker than the piano parts, but SO WHAT!!?? They are perfectly suitable for these concertos to my ears.
But again, I prefer a version of Rubinstein playing the 2nd piano concerto where a very small portion of the orchestral part is cut!! Strange!! (do you know this part?)

Even if it suits his concertos and even I like them very much BUT the fact that they much weaker than the piano part gives someone the chance to admit that Chopin may had some weakness in orchestral writing. Come on, we must not deny.

I am just like you Kathleen (except the fact of the "senior" )

I don't remember the last time I really paid much attention to these things. I know I should be watching them with attention but the fact that I am an 'amateur' who had no harsh formal training and competitions and recitals and criticism and things like that, led to the fact that "play it as you hear it, how you feel it"

Thank you, Ragnhild and Bassio...now I know I'm in good company.

I remember telling this little story once before. Josef Hofmann, considered by many to be THE pianist of this time, had Anton Rubinstein as a teacher.

Once, Josef asked Rubinstein: "How do I play this?"

The master answered angrily, "With your nose, I DON'T CARE!"

And as to discussion about Chopin's lack of ability to "write" for the orchestra. As we mentioned, he was little more than a teen when he composed his two concertos. Who knows what he could have composed, later on, perhaps in 10 years...if he had chosen to. The fact that he choose not to, does not mean that he couldn't. I believe he was capable of doing anything, if he wanted to.

Yes, we certainly need Hersh's opinion here.

Kathleen

Then again, it's possible he just couldn't be bothered. The concerti were literally homework assignments. He once told one of his students that one shouldn't use what was heard in the concert hall as the standard for musical accomplishment.

Excellent post Kathleen!! I agree 100% ...There are pedal markings in Chopin's music??..!!

Yes, there are.

At least in the music I have. What's so strange is that Chopin very often agrees with me.

Kathleen

There's "ped" written in every so small and neatly all over his manuscripts.

Hi Hersh:

We have a "Class Photo Album" here on the forum and I would love to post one (or more) of your pictures...with your permission of course. Basically, it's just a way for all of us to connect a name to a face, and it's just a fun thing we do. :p

We'll understand if you'd rather not. But if it's OK, I have 3 that are super. Of course, of you as M. Chopin. One at the piano and the other of you standing on the stage. And, one of you as George Gershwin. Any or all 3..whichever you'd like (or not. )

Any of them will "knock the socks off" of everyone here on the forum. To think...Chopin as a member of the Piano Forum!!

Just in case you're interested in knowing what we look like (we...as in those of us who do most of the "hanging out" on the forum), here we are. We're on the first half of the page. The last half are pictures of other forumites...not necessarily devoted to Chopin, but pretty good people, just the same.

Chopin Devotees...with family/friends and pets!!

Thanks,
Kathleen

But as Chopin's piano was actually a lot less resonant than pianos today, his pedal markings might not be appropriate for modern conditions. I agree with Kathleen that one really needs to listen to the sound one is producing, and pedal accordingly.

Gee...you mean I could be right in doing what I have been doing?

I'm shocked because, truthfully, I've always felt a little guilty about "doing my own thing."

Thanks MaryRose. You made my day!!

Kathleen