Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Piano Tuning
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
52 registered members (Belger1900, bennevis, chopoong, CharlesXX, Brometeo, 9 invisible), 1,766 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 139 of 277 1 2 137 138 139 140 141 276 277
#981584 - 09/26/08 01:53 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,696
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member
loveschopintoomuch  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,696
Illinois
Please, Elene, accept my sincere apology for not including you in the "knowledgeable" group. Obviously, you are quite an expert on Chopin, and I made an egregious error by leaving you out.

Again, I apologize.

Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#981585 - 09/26/08 02:38 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,428
Mary-Rose Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mary-Rose  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,428
Essex, England
Quote
Originally posted by Elene:
Just to clarify: The Ys in "Fryderyk" sound like short Is in English. The accent is on the second syllable.

Elene
Crikey, I didn't know about the accent. Are you suggesting we should now call him Derek for short? eek

#981586 - 09/26/08 03:46 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Lodz, Poland
I think I might be of use here smokin

I took the liberty and made a recording with polish pronunciation saying:

Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin - Żelazowa Wola (his birth place)

http://private.maticomp.net/chopin.mp3

Hope that helps (or not) laugh

Mateusz


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
#981587 - 09/26/08 04:42 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Mati, that was very thoughtful. Thanks!

What do you think about the spelling "Szopen"? Is it more commonly used in Poland? Would the pronunciation be different?

Steven

(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#981588 - 09/26/08 04:48 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Lodz, Poland
Even here the most common spelling is Chopin. One not knowing the spelling "Chopin" after hearing his surname would write it as "Szopen" - it's just the phonetic representation, so the pronunciation would stay exactly the same.

Quoting on Polish version of Chopin entry in Wikipedia:

"Ojciec, Mikołaj (1771-1844), był spolonizowanym Francuzem przybyłym z Marainville w Lotaryngii. Francuską wersją nazwiska - Chopin - posługiwali się do końca życia i on, i Fryderyk, z rzadka spolszczając je do postaci Szopen, która to bazuje na wymowie języka francuskiego i bywa używana potocznie."

which goes into:

"His Father, Mikołaj (Nicholas) (1771-1855), was a polonized French coming from Marainville in Lorraine. French version of their name - Chopin - was used till their death by both Mikołaj and Fryderyk, who rarely polonized it into Szopen based on french pronunciation and used it casually."


M.


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
#981589 - 09/26/08 04:55 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
thumb

Thanks again.

Steven

#981590 - 09/26/08 05:09 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Oh Mati, thanks! and a couple more please, pretty please,
"Zwyny, Frycek, Fryc." Thanks!


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#981591 - 09/26/08 05:26 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Lodz, Poland
Do you mean Wojciech Adalbert Żywny, Chopin's teacher and a violinist? smile

I will do more tommorow morning (it's 23:25 here now, so let's say in 11 hours smile ). If you have anything more for me to record, I will be pleased to do so laugh

M.


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
#981592 - 09/26/08 05:58 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Quote
Originally posted by Mati:
Do you mean Wojciech Adalbert Żywny, Chopin's teacher and a violinist? smile

I will do more tommorow morning (it's 23:25 here now, so let's say in 11 hours smile ). If you have anything more for me to record, I will be pleased to do so laugh

M.
Yes, Zywny. Mati, if you let us we'll give you a whole glossary of Polish names to record. You'd better watch out.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#981593 - 09/26/08 06:05 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Lodz, Poland
One should have a microphone at readiness all time!* And I certainly do, so feel free and don't worry about me laugh


* it's a paraphrase of "One should have scales at readiness all time" said by Jascha Heifetz at his violin masterclass with Erik Friedman, one of my personal favourites - so fun to watch! I love Heifetz attitude laugh Not piano, but still I'll provide a link smile http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kkc93IerkQ


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
#981594 - 09/26/08 07:17 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,428
Mary-Rose Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mary-Rose  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,428
Essex, England
Mati, you are an angel! That's really helpful. I too have wondered about 'Zwyny' which looks unpronouncable to me!

You have a very nice voice, too. wink

#981595 - 09/26/08 07:43 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Lodz, Poland
Zwyny is almost unpronouncable, possible even though. Zywny is much easier laugh I will provide some audiofiles in the morning laugh Kind of Devoted to Chopin Podcast ;-D


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
#981596 - 09/27/08 06:05 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Lodz, Poland
The first batch here goes!

http://private.maticomp.net/chopin2.mp3

And transcription if there were some problems with my English or unidentificable Polish words laugh :

-------------8<-------------
Hello Dear Chopin Devotees!

I'd like cover some pronunciation aspects of polish language in this podcast-like
recording. Of course, everything related to our master's name, his teachers and
contemporary pianists.

His name was Fryderyk Chopin, often shortened into Frycek, which is also the nickname
of one of our members. Hello Frycek! He asked me to say Fryc too, so I'm saying it: Fryc.

Chopin was born in Żelazowa Wola. His father's name was Mikołaj Chopin. Our master was
taught by Wojciech Adalbert Żywny. To answer the question posted by Mary-Rose, the
combination of letters Z-w-y-n-y would be pronounced as Zwyny, but it is very rare
to have two hard consonants stacked together.

He was also taught by Józef Elsner.

Last but not least, the guy known to have been the greatest pianist ever was Chopin's
contemporary. His name was Franciszek Liszt - but because he was not Polish, Franz Liszt
is used in Poland as often.
-------------8<-------------


Cheers!
M.


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
#981597 - 09/27/08 10:00 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Very good, Mati! Thank you very much. thumb


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#981598 - 09/27/08 10:25 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Kathleen, I don't think I thanked you for your kind words about my first recording of 10/4 ... so thank you kindly! I have posted a link to the other ones for the e-cital, too, all of them still works in progress with almost three weeks to go:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/32/5173/20.html#000485

It's not possible for me to feel pride about these homespun renderings, but working on the has certainly brought me considerable joy. I'm hoping to make recordings between now and the 17th that are appreciably better technically, but I hope that even these convey how much pleasure and value the etudes offer amateurs like us.

I think my goal is now to "learn" them all, and I can't imagine a happier pursuit!

Steven

#981599 - 09/27/08 01:02 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,696
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member
loveschopintoomuch  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,696
Illinois
Dear Steven:

If I could play as you do, I would be busting all the buttons on my shirt with pride.

How do you do it??? As I mentioned in my previous critique, your finger dexterity is a marvel! These are very difficult etudes, and you seem to have them under control. Congratulations on a super achievement. [Linked Image]

To be able to play all of Chopin's etudes...well, that's "the impossible dream" for me, but for you, a real probability! thumb

Fondly,
Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
#981600 - 09/27/08 01:45 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Thanks so much for your kind words. Unfortunately, the residue of childhood trauma and drama continues to put pride out of reach. It's still hard to allow myself even to feel pleasure in musical expression, and it pleases me to know my service to Chopin is appreciated. Dang. smile

I wouldn't want anyone to think I learned these etudes recently in anticipation of next month's event. I "revived" 10/4 and 10/7 after working them up to an iffy stage in past years; I gave 10/2 a very brief shot as a teenager (the Alfred Mirovitch book, you know wink ), got nowhere with it then, and started relearning it anew around the beginning of this summer along with 25/9.

I probably won't post new versions of the e-cital pieces before the event, but I plan to record 25/9 soon.

Steven

p.s. As concerns "playing" all of them, that needs to be put in quotation marks in the same way as "learning" them—to make clear our loose interpretations of those words!

#981601 - 09/27/08 07:05 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Elene  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
Land of Enchantment
Just a quick comment-- more later on language:

Liszt's original name in Hungarian was Ferenc. I don't know what name he thought of himself by, but he was a native German speaker rather than a Hungarian speaker, so I suppose he called himself Franz. Correct me if you know.

But hey, wait a minute-- do we really know that Liszt was the greatest pianist ever? In his own time he had to duke it out with Thalberg for the championship, and somebody, asked whether Liszt or Thalberg was the best, said that Chopin was.

I'm not saying that was necessarily true, just that there was controversy! One would have to say that Liszt had a greater range and facility as a composer than Thalberg, and greater strength than Chopin.

I often wonder how our best contemporary players would compare, since piano technique and pedagogy have continued to develop all this time.

Elene

#981602 - 09/28/08 06:46 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Lodz, Poland
Elene - that's a very good point! We use the name Ferenc very often too, apart from the polish a-bit-of-equivalent Franciszek. I wasn't sure on that one, as I never went deep into Liszt's history and our Wikipedia on this is somewhat lacking. I must look into that one! Thanks.

With this greatest piano ever thing I wanted to put a bit of irony and a grain of salt ;-) I remember stories about Thalberg and Liszt that were posted in the Pianists Corner. I wonder how contemporary pianists would compare too. After seeing Marc-Andre Hamelin play Alkan beasts, Godowsky transcription of Chopin etudes, a lot of Liszt and other almost-impossible pieces I am quite sure he (and many others) is not far away from Liszt, or may be even better. The problem is we have no Liszt's recordings and nothing to compare objectively, just written thoughs of his contemporary musicians that he was that great.


M.


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
#981603 - 09/28/08 09:34 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
I've been glancing at some of Liszt's letters that are online hoping to see how he signed himself. Unfortunately he signed himself "F. Liszt" (even to his mother!)So he's no help there.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#981604 - 09/28/08 01:32 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Lodz, Poland
We may always call him Flist, just like Victor Borge did laugh

But going into english Wikipedia (I know it's not the ultimate source, but nonetheless) article on him we get this:

-------

Franz Liszt (Hungarian: Liszt Ferenc; pronounced [ˈlɪst ˈfɛrɛnts]) (October 22, 1811 – July 31, 1886) was a Hungarian composer

(...)

In March 1875 Liszt became the first president of the Hungarian Royal Academy of Music in Budapest. The institute (which has since been renamed the Liszt Ferenc Academy of Music)

-------

That makes me think that formally he was Ferenc in his homeland. That doesn't change anything on how he thought of himself though. Maybe he himself was perfectly aware of the ambiguouity of the letter "F." he used signing his letters. I mean, he knew it will be universally OK, wherever he goes. In Hungary, his true first name as Ferenc, in France his first name as Franz, in Poland as Franciszek, and so it goes. Maybe he never tried to preserve the spelling of his first name in original Hungarian form?

I mean, it's almost the same problem as with Russian pianists. Their names must be transliterated from Cyrillic into latin alphabet, therefore never being exactly the same as "the originals" and often many different spellings are seen.


M.


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
#981605 - 09/28/08 03:32 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,428
Mary-Rose Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mary-Rose  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,428
Essex, England
Mati - many thanks for your excellent, helpful and oh-so-professional pronunciation 'podcast'!

Sotto Voce - I find your playing nothing less than inspiring. It makes me realise I should try harder.

Frycek - fancy someone signing themselves with their surname, to their own mother. Strange customs in those days.

Everyone - Thank you for making the Devoted to Chopin thread such a pleasant place to dip into!

#981606 - 09/28/08 05:58 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Kathleen and Mary-Rose, thank you both for your comments. That anyone would find inspiration in my playing is a most gratifying compliment because of my strong conviction that our reach should exceed our grasp. I may not be atrevido* in other areas of life, but Chopin inspires me to be so with his music.

FWIW, listening to myself makes me feel that perhaps I should try harder, too. I wish Frycek could bottle and sell her resolve and self-discipline.

I wonder if Liszt's custom of signing his full name even in personal correspondence reflected a custom or was just idiosyncratic. I feel certain (though I forget the details!) that there was a sitcom in which a running gag involved a character who would always identify himself on the telephone with his full name even when calling his own mother.

Does that ring a bell with anybody? Maybe it was as outré in Liszt's time as it is now, and he was a "character," too.

Is it widely known that Liszt's father (né Adam List) Magyarized the spelling of the family name?

Steven

* The Spanish word encompasses more shades of meaning than any single word in English: daring, bold, brave, sassy, cheeky, risqué, brazen, forward. Dang, I feel like such a pedant. I wonder if anyone else besides BruceD typically uses footnotes in posts. At least I'm in good company.

#981607 - 09/28/08 06:42 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Quote
Originally posted by sotto voce:
I wish Frycek could bottle and sell her resolve and self-discipline.
Thanks, Steven. With apologies to Wilde, perseverance is the last refuge of the untalented.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#981608 - 09/28/08 07:24 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,696
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member
loveschopintoomuch  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,696
Illinois
Steven, I can't help you with that sitcom, but I must relate a humorous story, along these lines, and I swear it is true.

My brother attended summer camp when he was about 10. The costs were picked up by some local Catholic charitable group, Polish,I think.

Anyhow, he was there for two weeks. I wish it were two months!

About one week after he left, my mother received the following letter. I am paraphrasing and correcting his spelling, big time!

Dear Mother:

I hate this camp. The food is terrible. There are a lot of bugs. The water is cold. They make us get up really early to do work. The other boys are jerks. I'm having a good time.

Love,

Your son,
Thomas Stedman


(As if my mother didn't know her only son's name.)

And I should addd that this was decades before that "Hello, Motter, Hello Fadder" hit recording.

I wonder if this is a male ego thing. (Sorry, Steven, Matt.) I don't remember Chopin signing any of his letters to his family so formally.

Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
#981609 - 09/28/08 08:22 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Elene  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
Land of Enchantment
Ah, but we DO have at least one recording of Liszt! He was recorded on piano roll near the end of his life. I don't know what quality the recording was or where to find it.

I didn't know that Ferenc's father Magyarized the family name. Extra confusion: the sounds of S and SZ are exactly the opposite in Hungarian to what they are in Polish. If the spelling "List" had been kept, it would have sounded like "Lisht" in Hungary.

I also didn't know that in Hungary the family name is put first.

At least they get to speak Hungarian there now, not German like in Franz/Ferenc's time.

I was confused about Mati's translation that said the spelling "Szopen" was "rarely" used by Fryderyk and Mikolaj/Nicolas. Does the original Polish imply "hardly ever" or "occasionally"?

And while "Szopen" is how the name is pronounced in Poland, it has little relation to the French pronunciation, with the accent on the second syllable, a nasal, and no N. (I don't know how to write that phonetically, like Steven would.)
So even with the spelling "Chopin," the name was polonized.

In the lute world, we have F. Cutting, a contemporary of John Dowland. His name is often given as Francis, but in reality, we don't have a clue what his true name was.

(By the way, has anyone seen the movie The Red Violin ? One of the characters is a bizarre violin virtuoso and composer named Frederick, who lives with an overdramatic novelist.)

Geekily,

Elene

#981610 - 09/29/08 04:50 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Elene  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
Land of Enchantment
Back to pronunciation for a moment:

Mati, you are a treasure. Thank you for speaking to us.

I think it might be helpful if everyone could hear these names:
Tytus Wojciechowski
Justyna Krzyzanowska

At least we’ve got “Fryderyk” straight: 3 syllables, accent on the second. In Polish, accents generally occur on the penultimate syllable.

(But in Czech, it’s different, and so Mikuli is “MEE-koo-lee.” Just in case you weren’t confused enough yet.)

And we definitely can’t nickname him “Derek”—he’s still Fryc, which again sounds like “Fritz.”

That was the easy part. The hard part is pronouncing “Chopin”! I have heard so many variations of the vowel in the second syllable. The usual Polish pronunciation, as far as I have heard, has a rather indeterminate vowel, with the mouth fairly closed—a schwa, I suppose. It does sound like “Szopen.” Mati said it with a slightly more open mouth, a little more of a short A sound. (No criticism of anyone, just interest.) And as I said before, none of this resembles a French pronunciation. There is widespread agreement that the accent is on the first syllable, which is Polish and not French.

We MAY possibly be able to hear Chopin’s own opinion of how to say his name. (Shush, MR.) If you check the Leslie Flint website and look at the list of recordings attributed to Chopin, the undated recording at the bottom of the list is the one to listen to for this purpose. Right at the beginning the Chopin voice introduces himself. He gives the French version of his first name— Frédéric— and his last name has yet again a somewhat different vowel sound, more of an “ah”; worse, when he repeats it, it is ever so slightly different still. At this point the voice seems to be having trouble with the mechanics of the process; the quality of his speech clears up considerably as he goes along, but the name is said early on, and perhaps his difficulty in getting through explains the subtly different sounds on the two instances of it. He says his name in at least one of the other sessions, as well, but I can’t remember which.

The Flint sessions took place with an English medium and his English friends, and they referred to Chopin as “Frederick.” For me that takes a lot of getting used to, but the voice didn’t seem to object.

I have a number of reasons to accept these after-death communications as authentic. However, even if one believes that the speaker is truly our favorite composer, that doesn’t mean that we are hearing the sound of Chopin’s voice as it was in life. It's an artificial voice at best, and may not be at all what he sounded like. We may well be hearing a true impression of his general style of speech, however, and pronunciations are likely to be the same, though there are also reasons to think they may have been contaminated, so to speak. The whole thing is tantalizing and fascinating. As always where our friend is concerned, the precise truth seems impossible to pin down.

Steven: Keep being just as pedantic as you wish, and I will try to keep up with you!

Elene

#981611 - 09/29/08 09:58 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Lodz, Poland
Quote
Originally posted by Elene:
Ah, but we DO have at least one recording of Liszt! He was recorded on piano roll near the end of his life. I don't know what quality the recording was or where to find it.
Howk! I must look for it somehow, I am extremely curious. If it exists, it should have already been rendered using some contemporary player pianos, just like Rachmaninov recordings have.

Quote
Originally posted by Elene:

Extra confusion: the sounds of S and SZ are exactly the opposite in Hungarian to what they are in Polish. If the spelling "List" had been kept, it would have sounded like "Lisht" in Hungary.
These two sound in Polish differ too. List would be list, just like in English, but Liszt read using polish pronunciation rules would end up as Liszt, with "sz" being the same as in "Sz"open. It's just we all know Liszt is pronounced List everywhere in the world, and so do we.

Quote
Originally posted by Elene:

I was confused about Mati's translation that said the spelling "Szopen" was "rarely" used by Fryderyk and Mikolaj/Nicolas. Does the original Polish imply "hardly ever" or "occasionally"?
My guess would be "occasionally". "Rzadko" is the opposide of "często" being exactly the same what "rarely" as opposite to "often" is. The article was from Wikipedia though, without any citation. Another thing is I can't really remember any document or publication with "Szopen", as opposed to "Chopin" which is used on regular basis.

Quote
Originally posted by Elene:

And while "Szopen" is how the name is pronounced in Poland, it has little relation to the French pronunciation, with the accent on the second syllable, a nasal, and no N. (I don't know how to write that phonetically, like Steven would.)
So even with the spelling "Chopin," the name was polonized.
Yes, it has nothing to do with French pronunciation. The pronunciation goes like polonised "Szopen", but the original French spelling was preserved.

Quote
Originally posted by Elene:

(By the way, has anyone seen the movie The Red Violin ? One of the characters is a bizarre violin virtuoso and composer named Frederick, who lives with an overdramatic novelist.)
It's one of my personal favourites - very touching. The only big accusation I have is that they didn't even try to teach this virtuoso how to look like playing a violin. He's a laughingstock during his concert even for those, who are not very familiar with violin playing... the music by John Corigliano is lovely nonetheless. I love the main theme.

Quote
Originally posted by Elene:

I think it might be helpful if everyone could hear these names:
Tytus Wojciechowski
Justyna Krzyzanowska
I will post a recording in few minutes smile

Quote
Originally posted by Elene:

That was the easy part. The hard part is pronouncing “Chopin”! I have heard so many variations of the vowel in the second syllable. The usual Polish pronunciation, as far as I have heard, has a rather indeterminate vowel, with the mouth fairly closed—a schwa, I suppose. It does sound like “Szopen.” Mati said it with a slightly more open mouth, a little more of a short A sound.
I will try to go a bit deeper into it, going a bit slower, and faster, and splitting it into two syllabes, and so on.

The pronunciation is an issue for which we won't find any ultimate truth, I guess. Chopin was Polish, and we all in Poland call him the way I recorded. The problem is, he spent a majority of his life in France, where the pronunciation of his family name was entirely different. What's more, he used French version of his first name (Frédéric). I guess he is known internationally mainly that way, not the Polish way - therefore the French pronunciation being "the ultimate one", also used by himself in the recording you pointed out. The sound quality is very poor though.


My Best!
Mateusz


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
#981612 - 09/29/08 10:45 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
I believe the spelling Szopen was used for his school records one year.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#981613 - 09/29/08 11:38 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,284
Lodz, Poland
I thought a video would be much more useful than an audio recording, because you will be able to see my lips.

Here it goes: http://vimeo.com/1841044

And the transcript - not ideal, because I wasn't reading, but the order is preserved.

---
Hi, it's me again.

Before going to the point, I'd like to start with differences
in vowels pronunciation. We have it different than in English.

All our vowels are pronounced without changing the shape of mouth, therefore representing a single blow sound

English "a" is always "a" like in "luck"
"i" is always "i" like in "squeeze"
"o" is always "o" like in "don't" or "on"
"e" is always "e" like in "pet", "pen"
"u" is always "u" like in "mood"

We have also double-consonant sound, apart from others, "Sz".
It is very similar english "sh" like in "swish" or "wish", but
tad harder.

Therefore we can split up Szopen into two syllables

Szo and pen, the latter being just like the writing tool - pen, with the only difference - a bit shorter vowel in the middle.

The accent goes on the first syllable, resulting in Szopen.

With Franz Liszt we say "list", with "i" as in "squeeze". If "sz" was to be read, it would be "liszt".

For the last two:

Tytus Wojciechowski

and

Justyna Krzyżanowska
---


My Best!
M.


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
Page 139 of 277 1 2 137 138 139 140 141 276 277

Moderated by  BB Player, casinitaly 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
The difference between PTG and technician association?
by Fazioli-Yang. 10/22/17 12:27 AM
Sostenuto pedal
by Elysia.S. 10/21/17 10:52 PM
Impending issue with ABF Recital software
by Whizbang. 10/21/17 10:12 PM
Lee's Piano
by Piano*Dad. 10/21/17 09:18 PM
Cliché Pieces
by Qazsedcft. 10/21/17 06:06 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,417
Posts2,666,349
Members89,015
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0