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Sotto voce wrote :
I have been to Père Lachaise to see Chopin's grave , just to say "thank you", that was a very special experience for me.
I also spent the summer in Warsaw when I was 22, I wanted to see Fryderyk Chopin and Marie Curie's homeland. - But I do have a little shorter way travelling there than you.
Now I dream about going to US once in my life, I would like to see NY.

Ragnhild

Ragnhild, please share your experience in Poland with us.

I just lost three messages (one took me an hour to write).

Will write later after I recovered from this frustration!!

Kathleen

I love so many composers but for me there is none that so completely fills my love of piano music. One can't help but wonder what he would have created had he lived to say the age Liszt lived to (his 70's)? But then again, I wonder how much of the emotion we feel in Chopin's work had to do with the fact that he was so ill and must have known he would not live long?

Hi Again:

I’ve finally gotten smart and am now composing everything in Word first, then doing a cut and paste.

karaeloko:

You sound just like me by refusing to learn any music other than Chopin. My teacher is having a fit. I told her I would do Bach only because Chopin thought he was the ultimate, and what was good enough for Chopin is good enough for me. But truthfully, I have a hard time getting his music. I can’t, in all good faith, tell you that you should try other composers. Because I feel that one has to learn something they love. Especially in my case, when it takes so long to complete a piece. If I didn’t love it, I’d hate it by the time I was finished (as in Fur Elise).

Jolly Roger: Rubinstein is my favorite also. I actually had sat on the same stage with him many years ago. I went to his All-Chopin concert (it doesn’t get any better than that), and since the hall was packed, they had to put some fold-up chairs on the stage. That’s where I sat, about 10 feet away from him while he played. Quite truthfully, I can’t remember much because I was in the state of shock. Good luck with your new pieces.


Frank: Why did you pick a name like that? You’re probably young, thin and extremely attractive…like me! :p

You said something that has always been in back of my head. What it would have been like to have heard Chopin play. It isn’t trite at all. To hear him play his own music, what I wouldn’t give for that. He was considered the tops in his day, even over Liszt, if you can imagine. The only thing people would complain about was his soft touch. They were used to the bang and boom (ala Liszt). That’s one of the reasons Chopin didn’t like to play in front of huge crowds. He preferred the intimacy of the salon.

Haizel: Thank you so much for that great quote. I’ve read it a few times and thought what compassion he showed for those of us (not virtuosos, just ordinary struggling amateurs) trying our best to do justice to his music. It’s too bad he didn’t get a chance to finish his book on technique. He was starting from the beginning…explaining the staves and name of notes, etc. Then he went on a bit about technique, but he didn’t get very far. Still we can glean from what he wrote some great concepts. Fingering, pedal use, etc.

That’s a great book, by the way. Thanks again.

Ragnhild: I think your love for Chopin matches mine. The slow movement of the F minor (in my opinion) is the most beautiful music ever written. It breaks your heart and I don’t mind confessing has brought me to tears many times. He wrote it during his passion for Costantia Gladkowska, whom he thought to be “the idea.” He loved her from afar.

It is often said that Chopin was “in love with the idea of love.”

The chronology of the concertos has given rise to controversy. The F minor, op 21, although composed before the E minor. The former was published in April, 1836, the latter in 1833.

Euan: I just read about the Godowsky Etudes last night. I had never heard of them, so I am hardly an expert. From: The Chopin Companion by Alan Walker (which is considered by many an excellent book) He says: Mention must be made of a curious collection of pieces called Studien uber die Etuden von Chopin, by Leopold Godowsky (1870-1938). There were 53 of them….including a C sharp minor version of the Revolutionary Study. …All the pieces show a phenomenal ingenuity in exploiting to the outside limit the technical possibilities of the piano and the human hand. But there is something monstrous and slightly repellent in this total obsession with technique, something from which Chopin himself was quite free. Godowsky’s pieces were not really acceptable in the concert hall although he himself thought they were. He was a slightly inhibited player, though all those who heard him in private were deeply impressed.

I think I’ll take a pass on Chopin with a Latin beat.

Wisdom26: I share your dream. To be able to play his music and do it some justice. Just a suggestion, try smaller pieces. I currently learning Mazurka Op 67. 3 and 4 and a beauty of a nocturne in C minor, posth. All just two pages long.


Btb: Yes, it is believed that the 10.12 was born in Stuttgart in 1831. This was the time Chopin heard of the defeat of the Polish uprising by the Russians. In his journal at this time , he described in detail his anguish and horror at the thought that his sisters and mother were being raped, his father killed, and even the grave of his dead sister trampled. Huneker says of this etude: "The composer has flung with overwhelming fury , the darkest, the most demoniac expressions of his nature. Here is no veiled surmise, no smothered rage, but all sweeps along in tornadic passion. ….Great in outline, pride, force and velocity, it never relaxes its grim grip from the first shrill dissonance to the overwhelming chordal close."

(I told you Huneker was quite flowery). However, I love this description of this piece.

Jolly Roger: Actually Chopin has half and half. His father, French, left his homeland at the age of 19 (I think) and settled in Poland, where he felt welcomed. He ever returned to France or saw any of his relatives. Frederick’s mother was all Polish and from distant aristocracy. She was a simple, but loving and sensitive woman. And it is believed that Chopin inherited these qualities from her. From his father, the need for perfection and being “proper.”

Reaper978: (It’s coming, I promise). I love that Ballade also. Can’t help but be swept away by its power. Ah yes, we all agree. Brilliant music, indeed.

SottoVoce: So glad to welcome you. When I first noticed your avatar and user name, I knew you were “one of us.” If I were as talented as you with words, I could have written your message. Lucky you, going to Paris. Is it soon? Let us know how it went.

Ragnhild; How’s the nocturne coming?

I was moved by your words…”to say thank you.” For that’s what I say to myself every time I listen to any of his music or try to play one of his compositions. The worse thing is reading his biography. His story is crushing and so utterly depressing. Yes, please tell us about your trip to Poland. Do you know that at the home of his birth, on every Sunday, they have a little concert in the garden? Some local pianist plays all Chopin to entertain those who have gathered there. It’s been going on for a long time.

I’m talked out. Aren’t you all glad.

Thanks again for joining our group. It’s just a way (to use Ragnhild’s words) to say “Thank you.”

Kathleen

P.S. Please excuse any typos. I’m trying to hurry because I still don’t trust computers and I’m afraid all of this will end up where all the missing socks from the dryer are.

Hi Peyton:

Interesting point. I, too, have often wondered if knowing that his days were numbered might have, in some way, contributed to his ability to write such heart-felt music, both the lovely nocturnes and mazurkas but also the powerful, dark and foreboding scherzos, ballades and polanaises. He could be full of rage in one and full of tenderness in another.

What a guy!!

Kathleen

I think you will be very disappointed in me now, Frycek when i tell you that I did not se Chopin's home in Zelazowa Wola.
When I came to Warsaw for a summer job in 1987 (yes I am that old) it was quite overwhelming, and the most important I got from it was a history lesson

You might know that Norway is a small, rich social-democracy with lots of nature and little culture, and I was probably a bit spoiled.
Poland in 1987 was still a communist-country with shortage of everything and people who lived in Warsaw had a hard time with tiny salaries and queueing up for everything from toilet paper to bus tickets.

I was lucky to have time off to look around but the language was a problem. I saw the old mediaeval castles of Wawel and Marlbork, the beautiful old town of Krakow and the totally rebuilt old town of Warsaw (the second world war left nothing of the original). I walked through the Kazimierz area that was the location of "Schindler's list" and Praga that they used as the Ghetto in "The pianist". (but I did not know they were going to make these films .)I also saw the concentration camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau which is made a museum.

I was very surprised to find the beautiful catholic churches open all night, you could just go inside, light a candel and pray. I guess I learned a little about what it means to really have faith in Poland.
I was also in Gdansk when the Solidarity movement had one of its demonstrations.

Of course I also heard Chopin played, in Wilanov castle and in Lazienki park, but I don't think the performers were the best, in fact the best concert experience I had in Warsaw-87 was not a Polish performer.

I think I should go back some day, Warsaw is totally different now and I should make a pilgrimage to Zelazowa Wola, I think my priorities have changed a little because now most of all I would like to see Chopin's handwriting

Today, 5 years after another tragic lesson of history, I think maybe when we learn more of the cruelty of the world, we need the beauty of music like Chopin's even more.

Ragnhild

Ragnhilde, what a very sensitive post. Thank you for sharing with us. Even at the darkest times some softening hope sometimes shines out. The church where Chopin's heart is enshrined was destroyed during the bombing of Warsaw. It was a German officer who found the intact urn containing Chopin's heart in the rubble. The Nazi's hated Chopin as an icon of Polish patriotism and had blown up his statue. The urn containing his heart would have been quite a prize for the Reich, but the officer was a music lover and quietly, secretly found a Polish priest and gave him the urn for safekeeping.

Yikes, just came back from a busy day, want to let you know that I am in. Wonderful idea. Tomorrow more.

Patty

I'm in too. I'm not as much a devotee as some of you, but man, in my 40+ years of playing piano, I just keeping coming back to him. I had a long hiatus of a couple decades during which I was immersed in Brahms. Then my son came up the ranks and started learning Chopin with a Chopin expert - an elderly Russian woman who studied at the Paris Conservatory with Cortot (who was taught by one of Chopin's students). He became another victim of Chopin-lust. Not only did he start playing Chopin incessantly (and beautifully, I might add), but he started needling me about why I didn't play Chopin.

It's funny. It's almost as if Chopin fell out of vogue. The music lost its luster for me for a period. But, my son drew me back in and in I have been now for the past three or four years now.

I too am listening to various Chopin recordings almost incessantly these days. Yes, indeed - Chopin is THE pianists' composer.

This is to LovesChopinTooMuch,
I am a complete beginner to piano and classical music. I am becoming obsessed with Chopin. I found a CD first in my local charity shop and have listened and loved it. I Don't know anything about him, but would love to play something. Is there anything a beginner could have a go at, beginner as at 13 weeks learning!!!! Shey

Hi Shey:

Gosh, 13 weeks.

Do you have a teacher? This might help somewhat. But it also might hinder since most would probably say you were not ready for anything by Chopin. :rolleyes:

Here's my take on this. If you love a piece of music (even though it might be a little ...or even a lot out of your league,) with lots of practice and loads of love, you can almost accomplish the impossible. The trick is to be determined.

HOWEVER, you could be setting yourself up for a lot of frustration (which kept me away from the piano for 15 years). We certainly don't want that to happen to you. Especially now, that you are just beginning.

I think the easiest piece (at least the first one I learned ..on my own) was his Prelude, Op. 28, No. 7. It's only about 15 measures in length. But, be careful...as in lots of Chopin's music, looks can be deceiving.

It has a lot of chords, mostly octave (two C's or two A', etc.). And there is an impossible reach in 5th meaure from the end. But the good news is...a lot of repeats.

It isn't a big sounding piece, but one that everyone has heard and loves because it's quite charming and elegant and short (a big plus).

Shey: I know how badly you would love to play Chopin. I wish you well. Give the prelude a try. It might take a while. But in the end, you'll be able to say: "I can play Chopin."

Doesn't get any better than that.

Good luck and check in with us. Also if anyone else has any other suggestions for Shey, please jump in. If you think I am giving her some bad advice, please let me (and the rest of us) know.

And buy more of Chopin's recordings. You have a whole new world out there to discover, lucky you!

Kathleen

I always loved hearing Chopin's music but haven't learned much of it . I asked a teacher once if I could learn some Chopin and he never replied one way or another - just kind of ignored the comment.

I since (some time ago) bought a book of the complete Preludes and Etudes. But I took one look at the music, closed the book never to return to Chopin again.

It still is in the back of my mind that I'd like to play some of his music.

Can anyone recommend some of the simplest Chopin pieces? I'd kind of like to play some simpler one's just for fun. What are some of his simplest works to play?

Thank you, Ragnhild, so much for sharing your experiences in Poland. You described everything so beautifully. You have the soul of a poet.

Regarding Chopin's heart. He had a real fear of being buried alive, as did his father. So he asked his sister to have his heart removed right after his death and requested it be buried in Poland. One can look at this in two ways. That his heart belonged to his motherland. Or he just wanted to make certain he was truly dead when buried. I prefer to think it was the former.

My grandfather (born in Poland and was once a guard at the Russian front) used to tell us kids horror stories of people, who were thought to be dead, laid out in the living room of people's homes. The bereaved saying prayers around the coffin. All of a sudden, the would-be corpse got up, looked around and had a strange look on her/his face. "Who invited all these people?"

Frycek: That's pretty amazing about that Nazi officer. (I have my fingers crossed).


Welcome Patty and Saraband. A special welcome BACK to Chopin for Katy. I envy you your son's love for music and his special adoration for Chopin. Also, wow...what a teacher you had.

Saraband: Too bad about your teacher.

I would love to recommend some compositions to you. What level do you think you are? Beginner or Intermediate and, if you could, indicate what level in those...such as middle beginner or advanced intermediate, etc.

A lot of Chopin's music can be played by middle-intermediate students. Lots of really beautiful pieces. Mazurkas, a few noctures and many preludes and much more. Please let me know.

Kahleen

I do like to play mostly middle intermediate level pieces for my own personal enjoyment. It's because I find myself gravitating toward simplicity in music. It is the Mazurkas and Nocturnes and such that I would be interested in. What would you recommend?

I have a number of comments on some things in the preceding messages.

The Chopin Companion by Alan Walker really is excellent. It's in the vein of Jim Samson's books, but I think it's a little less "dry" in its musical analyses and therefore more readable. (I think it's still out of print, but a couple of used copies are currently available on amazon.com.)

Also, Chopin's Letters, published by Dover (and therefore quite inexpensive!), is a very interesting look into the personality and psyche of our hero; one appreciates his sheer humanity, and that he had quirks and foibles like all of us.

I had not pondered the extent to which Chopin's inspiration and drive to write his most mature and masterful compositions in his "late" period was related to a sense of his days being numbered. I need to re-read Chopin's Letters myself to get a better sense of his own awareness of how rapidly he was approaching the end of his life.

I do know, though, that the masterworks in question were not produced in the actual final few years. The Cello Sonata, his last large-scale work and the last opus published in his lifetime, was completed by 1846. I think that by the last 3 years of his life, Chopin was so ill physically that his creativity was impacted. The concert tour of England and Scotland in 1848 must have been almost unbearably difficult for him.

On the other hand, I seem to recall reading that Schubert -- who died even more prematurely than our beloved Chopin -- had an amazingly intense burst of creative energy just a short time before his death, and that some of his masterworks (like the Sonata in B flat?) were conceived and penned practically overnight. Can anyone corroborate?

And I had no knowledge of Chopin's heart being rescued by a Nazi soldier. Now, that's proof that the power of beautiful music is transcendent.

Okay, I don't mean to stir up controversy with the subject I'm about to broach, but I have to comment on Chopin's lovers (as opposed to Chopin lovers!). I'm just trying to keep it real!
I wonder which biography that was, because Chopin scholars have typically refused even to "go there" -- except to defensively dismiss any possibility that same-sex attraction could possibly be imputed to Chopin. This urge to deny the significance of evidence to the contrary reeks of "doth protest too much." Like CHAS, I've wondered how the creativity of artists of the past might have been impacted in the absence of cultural and societal homophobia. And what especially interests me is how much more we might know if it weren't for the homophobic bias of historians and biographers!

I believe it's obvious from the written record that Chopin's relationship with Titus Wojciechowski (the dedicatee of the Opus 2 Variations) was the defining one of his life. The implications of their early correspondence has generally been suppressed, distorted or justified by commentary to the effect that the norms governing expressions of affection between men were completely different then -- i.e., that the explicitly lustful yearnings expressed were emphatically not romantic or, heaven forbid, sexual in nature.

Anyone who reads Chopin's Letters will see that Chopin's devotion to Titus Wojciechowski was lifelong. The month before his passing, Chopin wrote to him on the topic of arranging for Titus to visit Chopin in Paris. How much should we "read between the lines"? Indeed, we can only guess.

Wikipedia's entry for Chopin makes no mention whatsoever of Titus Wojciechowski. Does anyone else think that should be addressed and corrected?

Just a few of other things. I mentioned this in another thread, but everyone here should be interested to know that there is an orchestrated version of the Allegro de Concert on Vox Box "The Romantic Piano Concerto" Volume 1 (which also has the wonderful Henselt concerto). So, in a sense, we do have a very good -- albeit speculative -- example of what the first movement of the proposed third concerto would sound like! It's completely faithful to Chopin's score. The alternations of solo and tutti are the ones that are palpable in the piano solo score; even the instrumentation seems spot on, if much more elaborate than what Chopin would probably have devised.

Also, I recently acquired a used-but-like-new "The Complete Rubinstein" -- the enormous suitcase-sized box set of nearly 100 CDs -- from amazon.com. Perhaps I'll post my impressions occasionally as I work my way through it.

Finally, regarding my comment about Paris and Père Lachaise: I have no plans to go to Paris imminently. Unfortunately, I was just mentioning what will be first on my list of things to do when I finally do go there!

SHEY, Jesus, 13 weeks! Anyway, please go directly for Prelude No 4 Opus 28 in e minor. I discovered this Prelude after round about 1/2 a year learning (maybe a bit earlier) and hesitated first, BUT you will 100% for sure be able to grasp the beauty of this composition. Don't worry about the stretto part, you won't be able to play it (I am just recently able to survive it). AND you can play it real, real slow and soft (just don't drown the right hand notes with you left). Imagine, I have been enjoying this masterly little piece for more 1 1/2 years now!

When I started to discover it, it gave me thrills all over! I'll never forget this experience - back then I had no idea what kind of sound the score in front of my face would produce, and I was in awe with every new chord I played. I have tears in my eyes remembering...

I am off playing...

Patty

Sotto Voce: Excellent subject, and one I would love to comment upon later (after I practice.)

I know Frycek (our resident expert on Chopin...she knows just about everything) will also comment.

Patty39: I do agree with you that Prelude Op 28, e minor is "relatively" easy to play...but not that easy to play well. The constant chords in the LH can drown out the delicate one note melody line in the RH. But it is CERTAINLY worth the effort to give it a try.

Because my piano is so old and has a broken something, I find I have to use both the right and left pedals to keep those chords at bay. Also, it's difficult to keep them from sounding so "pounding." But it can be done, with practice. Good suggestion.

It does break your heart with its pathos. I can empathize with your tears. Every time I play it, I have to sit still on the bench for a few minutes to "recover."

I am constantly amazed how he (with just one note) can create such utter despair.

Chopin requested it be played at his funeral along with #6.

Go for it, Shey! You won't be sorry.

And you'll most definitely be "hooked."

Kathleen

I'd like to add a little story that involves our famous Waltz in A minor op. posth.: I remember that I had the score for a while, but I had never heard the waltz before. Somewhere around January I decided to try out the right hand to see how it sounded, it did not convince me. Then one day in February I just sat down and told myself what the heck, try both hands together and hack through it. The effect threw me off balance because the beauty of the piece unravelled instantly. Just a few days later I went to a concert with Gregory Sokolow, and guess what, his encore was this waltz, I couldn't believe my ears! And just back on Sunday my sister-in-law played it again as an encore at her concert for me - beautiful to hear it played by professional pianists! Sigh, I love this piece...

Patty

There's a book I have, "Essential Keyboard Repertoire 85 Early/Late Intermediate Selections In Their Original Form Baroque to Modern" Selected and Edited by Maurice Hinson. It contains 5 very playable Chopin pieces, including the posthumous A minor Waltz. It also contains a bunch of other nice stuff too.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/29/172.html has a link to a recording I made of one of those pieces.