Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum New member. First topic posted for discussion.

I have been reading posts, almost exclusively in this beginner's forum, but I have not joined until now because I never felt I had anything to contribute, until now.

For some time I have been using certain piano educational materials that I have never seen discussed here. If it was discussed here in the past, I apologize for missing it. I did use this site's search feature, but found very little.

I wish to discuss material from the following three sources: 1) The Art Publication Society (Progressive Series), 2) Sherwood Music School, and 3) The US School of Music. All three seem to have fallen out of print, but can still be obtained at places like eBay. Note that you may not find any being sold at one particular time. You need to be patient and check regularly. Many sellers list them differently. For example they may list "U.S. School of Music" instead of "US School of Music", with no periods in the second case, and sometimes just "School of Music". Once I saw "New York School of Music", because that is where the US School was located when it did exist. Material from the Sherwood Music School is often listed in different ways. And, sometimes "Progressive Piano Course" appears with no mention of The Art Publication Society, A set of Art Publication Society (Progressive Series) sold just today and there were a lot of bidders. So I know I'm not the only one who likes this stuff.

Myself, I am a self-learner. I have always been. I'm not interested in getting a teacher. It's not a question of expense. I've tried teachers. They don't work well for me. Or, as they would most probably say, I don't work well with them. Whatever.

In this forum I get the impression that most people who are studying piano completely on their own at home with no teacher use such method books as Alfred, Nancy and Randall Faber, Bastien, and John Thompson. There are even threads dedicated specifically to the Alfred and Faber books. I was certainly swayed by this and as a result I spent some time myself with the Alfred book when I first started. Now I admit that I'm not qualified to say that any of these method books are particularly bad. After all, they seem to be helping a lot of people learn piano. And, I don't want to suggest that those who are following the Alfred book at this site and who are succeeding should do anything different. However I did not do well with it. I think the bottom line is that I am in need of more detailed explanations than what appears is such method books. Plus a lot of the repertoire found in these books does not appeal to me. I wonder if there are other beginners out there just like myself who have the same problem and who end up losing enthusiasm and quitting.

Anyway, since I am comfortably retired for quite some time, I've been able to collect a wide variety of piano material. Generally I find that material from The Art Publication Society (Progressive Series), Sherwood Music School, and The US School of Music is superior for learning at home (completely on your own) than any of the popular method books discussed at this site.

Having said that, I have also noticed that once I have mastered a concept, I no longer perceive a great difference between any of the various books. That is, after reaching the point where I have actually learned a particular concept, all the method books seem to explain it very well. It's only while I am first learning something, before I fully understand it, that I perceive a difference, and that difference manifests itself by making the concept either easy or difficult to learn. When things are well explained from their lowest fundamental principles on up, they are easy for me to learn. When things are explained in a fragmented style jumping all over the place, I am left uncertain about what I am reading and I don't learn.

This raises what I think is the most important point. The only way to evaluate the effectiveness of a particular text is to put it in the hands of someone who knows absolutely nothing about the subject. Take something as simple as reading notes. Yes, this simple concept was a struggle for me in the very beginning. But one day I happened to read a particular explanation of it and boom, it hit me. It was so simple. Returning then to the Alfred book, which had confused me so much, their presentation looked fine. I couldn't understand what my learning problem was. Perhaps it was just the way it was presented? Maybe it was more a matter of what the text didn't say as opposed to what it did? Perhaps if I had struggled with the Alfred book a just little longer I would have eventually got it? Who knows why, but the truth is, before I understood how to read notes, the Alfred book seemed difficult, and now it seems simple - even trivial.

I also recognize that different people catch on differently to new concepts and as a result they don't all react in the same way to a particular presentation. I think it depends on a combination of people's characters and background. I'm a retired engineer, and so I prefer logical, common sense presentations rather than gospel truths. I asked my first piano teacher, "Why are the black keys arranged in groups of two's and three's?" She stuttered, waved her hands, babbled a lot, and then finally said, "Don't worry about that. It's too soon for you to understand." Yet it's something that surely anyone viewing a piano keyboard for the first time would notice and want to ask about. Well of course she couldn't have explained major scales in the first lesson. But would it have been very hard for her to satisfy my curiosity by saying something more substantial than, "Don't worry about it", really? She could have said something like, "It's because experience has shown that the human mind prefers music that is played using notes that are grouped into such patterns, and no one really knows why." Or perhaps she could have said, "Western music is based on groups of notes that have different spacing, and again no one really knows why." Such an explanation would not have imparted a full understanding, but it would have provided me with a fundamental reason for it. My curiosity would have been heightened. But saying, "Don't worry about it" frustrated me. It lowered my curiosity and made me want to leave and do something more interesting. After all, I'm retired. I only do what I like to do. But then that's just me, the retired engineer. You might prefer to take my teacher's advice and simply not worry about it. We're all different. However, I suspect that that particular teacher was a person who was so overwhelmed by the details of her profession that she failed to ever develop a fundamental understanding of it.

As a sidebar that I hope doesn't lose your attention, Richard Feynman, the Nobel Lauriat Physicist, once said, "If you cannot impart some fundamental understanding about a subject to an absolute neophyte, you don't really understand it yourself." He often said that he was constantly pursuing his quest to one day fully understand first year, undergraduate physics.

Returning to the world of pianos, and I hope I haven't lost you with my babbling, today I still possess learning barriers for new concepts in music and piano playing. The only difference is that now the bar has been raised to higher level concepts and challenges. But regardless of what I try to learn, until I actually learn it I am particularly sensitive to the way the subject is presented, and that is why for me there is a significant difference between the various method books. And, I have found that materials from the sources I mentioned: The Art Publication Society (Progressive Series), Sherwood Music School, and the US School of Music, seem to consistently work best for me.

One last thing. Because of my age it may be that I simply react better to material that is written in the style of years past. I must admit, sometimes when I wake up in the morning I still think it's 1940, until I look in the mirror of course.

Without adding any further bias, I am hoping that this post will start an honest discussion.

I don't know those books you mentioned, but I do understand your preference for 'material written in the style of years past'.We (for I am not a spring chicken either!) were used to rote learning and repetition and music books without talking vegetables cluttering up the pages.

And I sigh with you about the teacher who didn't seize the opportunity to at least say "I have no idea, but I'll check it out and get back to you next week". I have an adult student, probably in his 80's (I haven't asked)who was a printer and he notices every little variation in the notes. Tiny dots, unequal stems of notes, anything out of place and he's on to it. Great fun.

It might be time now for you to leave the tutorial books and look at collections of music from a range of periods with some stuff about the composers and styles.Alfred's do some stuff,put together by Willard Palmer.Another series is 'Discovering Piano Literature' (M. Dietzer) I'm sure there are other collections to be explored. I find that adults often really enjoy looking at the construction of even simple pieces of music.

It may also come down to learning style. Different people learn in different ways and if you are consistenly presented with a learning style that does not fit yours, you will not grasp the ideas presented easily. So, while Alfred's may work for me (it does), something else may work better for you.

If I did Alfred without my teacher I would have major problems. There are so many musical nuances and tricks of the trade that we can't know just from a method. For me personally Alfred without a teacher wouldn't work.

This touches on something important about evaluating methods. Although many folks here do use Alfred's or Faber's for self-teaching, that is not the purpose of these publications. These methods are intended to be used by teachers. So putting them into the hands of a complete neophyte with no teacher is not really a fair evaluation of their effectiveness for their intended purpose.

With that said, they are clearly available for purchase and use by anybody for any purpose, and it is a good thing for folks without teachers to discuss their experiences with these methods as I sure it helps others in similar situations.

Hi,

I think that there's a 'Catch-22' situation with most books. In order to write one, you generally have to be some kind of 'expert'. This tends to mean that the author has long ago forgotten what it what like NOT to know all the really fundamental things about their subject. So, like you, I have found many times that the explanations are perfectly correct, but they just didn't initially provide enlightenment unless you already knew at least some other things that they haven't mentioned yet. Or else they weren't good at emphasizing the most important parts of a concept.

For this reason, it has been suggested by some researchers that the best person to learn from is sometimes another student who is just a bit further along the track than you are. They are more likely to remember exactly what was initially confusing and why, and also able put it in non-jargon terms that are more easily understood. I guess that's one of the advantages of forums like this - plenty of people that are not so far ahead on the track, and who can help with explanations. Of course, that's also an advantage of a teacher who teaches a lot at your level - they're used to dealing with the common stumbling blocks.

Like you, I'm a retired engineer, and I rather enjoyed learning the theory side of music without a teacher. Once the initial confusion is past and the basic building blocks are in place it seems comparatively straightfoward to build the detail on it from then on. Most of the work seems to be in getting the darned fingers to do what they're told...

Cheers,

Chris

"Apparently I play piano like a carpenter - some days I nail it down, and some days I screw it up instead.."

Giggling my way to bed.

1940's? My method book comes from the 1750's! CPE Bach's 'Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments'.

What an amazing coincidence. Just two weeks ago I posted in the Teacher's Forum a question asking for opinions about the US School of Music home study course that I had noticed appears regularly from different sellers on eBay. My posting did not generate much response. In one case a responder checked out the course being sold on eBay, but reported a negative opinion that I suspected was unjustified. So, rather than discourage me from any further investigation, it caused me to become more curious about the course. So, I purchased it on eBay. It wasn't even expensive.

It is much too soon for me to give a qualified opinion on the US School of Music home study course. However, so far it does look very encouraging. One thing for sure, it is very extensive. I’m reading the early lessons now and the explanations of the basics of reading notes seems very good. Also, the repertoire is very interesting. However the course seems to ramp up rather quickly. I’m not sure I will be able to keep up to the recommended pace of one lesson per week.

Until now I have been unaware of the other sources of material that you mention: The Art Publication Society and Sherwood Music School. Thank you for the advice. I will keep an eye out for these.

packa wrote:
Although many folks here do use Alfred's or Faber's for self-teaching, that is not the purpose of these publications. These methods are intended to be used by teachers.

Mark… wrote:
If I did Alfred without my teacher I would have major problems. There are so many musical nuances and tricks of the trade that we can't know just from a method. For me personally Alfred without a teacher wouldn't work.

These simple observations hit me like a bolt of lightning. Why didn't I even suspect it before? I guess that explains why there is so much activity on the Alfred thread. It's full of people like me who, for whatever reason, don't have a teacher, and because they don't they are using a group feedback approach.

Perhaps the US School of Music course, which identifies itself as a “Home Study Course”, will work better for a person who has no teacher? It will take me some time before I can answer that question for myself.

Well, for the most part my background has a lot of music in it. My grandmother played piano and guitar and my mother plays the piano. I started out on clarinet when was in Jr. high school (1979 or so). I played clarinet for a few years then dumped it for bass guitar and eventually to guitar when I was about 15 or so. 25 years ago. I've been in bands that played live shows regularly and had a decent following. Only thing is that when I started guitar I never learned the proper way. Self taught, can't read music, play by ear etc... Personally, I think I have a natural talent for music, and I'm not trying to be smug with that comment. If anything I totally regret not learning the proper way when I was younger because I may have been able to do something with it. Anyway, I'm not too fond of teachers but I started piano last November and I don't want to make the same mistake I made with the guitar. Sure, I play the guitar just fine and can get up on stage and jam with anyone, but there is so much basic stuff that I know nothing about. I don't want that to happen with the piano so I have a teacher. Back to your topic though, with my musical background I haven't found anything in Alfred's yet that has confused me. Just the opposite actually, I think it's laid out clear and concise. Also with my guitar background I don't have any problems with independent finger movement. My main concern at this point it to learn the correct fingering and the correct finger positions for chords. If it's left up to me I'd be all over the keyboard using the wrong fingers and making things tougher than they should be. hehe!!

Good luck on your journey. I admire the enthusiasm you have for those three courses. I'm interested in checking them out.
MULLY

Welcome.

I'm with Mully on this one. I also find Alfred's to be clear and concise, but I also have a guitar background (maybe a pattern here).

I understand what packa and Mark say, though. I do read the threads for stuff I am not clear on and it helps to have people like Betty, Kim, and Klutz who will help out.

I am interested in what Orez Eno has to add to the course he is using. It sounds very interesting.

As far as why the key of C (and hence the keyboard) is the way it is, that's a long answer. One of the better explainations I have come across is in a book posted by Mel, the Cooke scale book...you can download it here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9mboe91hxmy

You might find it good reading.

It’s no coincidence. You see, Orez, unknown to you I noticed your post, but I did not respond because at the time I was not a member. Indeed, I did not even think I needed to ask the same question because I figured you had. However, as time went on and I saw few replies, I then thought I should post the question again, this time improving it by mentioning the other two sources of material that you did not. I also posted the question in the Adult Beginner’s Forum instead of the Teacher’s Forum, where you had posted it.

The truth is, I would not be a member of PianoWorld.com today if you had not made that post.

But now enough time has passed since I started this thread and responses seem to have stopped. I must conclude that the material I mention is considered by people at this website to be not very good. It’s probably more than a matter of the age of the material, as pointed out by the following response:

Although I opened this thread on this subject, I am not an expert on it. The truth is, I was hoping that someone with experience, especially with the Art Publication Society material, would contribute some knowledge. But that hasn’t happened.

Perhaps it’s best that I write some sort of conclusion to report that although the material I mention is not very popular, it did work well for me. Here is an outline of what I know about each set of material:

The Art Publication Society was located in St. Louis, Mo. Their chief editor was none other than Leopold Godowsky himself. Whether that was an honorary position or whether he took an active part in the publication of their material I do not know. I was hoping someone would know that. Anyway, although there are many versions of their piano lessons published over many years for different audiences (adolescent to adult) my understanding is that individuals could not purchase them directly. They were distributed through academic institutions and conservatories, as well as through approved private teachers. The material consisted of four different types: 1) Lessons, 2) Exercises, 3) Studies, and 4) Compositions. By definition these lessons are intended to be taken under the direction of a teacher. However, I find them excellent to study from on my own. I am lucky enough to have in good condition the 1913 edition of what I think is the complete set of 144 Lessons for adult students. They are bound in a four-volume hard cover book set. I also have a variety of exercises, studies, and compositions, all unbound, of various editions dating from about 1920 to the 1940’s.

Sherwood Music School in Chicago was founded by William Hall Sherwood in 1895. He was a protégé of Franz Liszt and one of America’s most celebrated pianist and teacher at the turn of the twentieth century. The school is now known as the Sherwood Conservatory of Music at Columbia College in Chicago. This material was modeled similarly to the Art Publication Society in that it consisted of lessons, exercises, studies, and compositions. They were distributed only to students officially registered for courses at the Sherwood Music School, either on campus or through satellite teachers across America. So, like the Art Publication Society, they are intended to by studied under the direction of a teacher. But again I found the material easy to study from on my own.

The US School of Music is a company that made its name selling a wide variety of instrument courses. It is my impression that their piano course was the most successful. This material is modeled as 96 lessons to be taken by students at home, without the aid of a teacher, at a recommended pace of one lesson per week. However, that’s much too fast for me. I actually remember their advertisements in popular music magazines of the 1940’s and 1950’s. Their rise to fame was because of their promise to teach you an instrument not by studying tedious theory and exercises, but by playing relatively popular and enjoyable music.

I have made use of all the above material, and I have progressed from the level of absolute beginner when I first retired, to the level of an intermediate player today. I mainly followed the US School of Music. I did this progressively, lesson-by-lesson, supplementing those lessons as I felt the need by reading theory from the lessons of the Art Publication Society and the Sherwood Music School. However, I found that the repertoire from all three sources progressed much too quickly for me. I was not getting enough variety and practice at each level, and as a result I was not building solid skill. I therefore started to expand my repertoire to include many standard music books, books that I learned about from a local music store that supplied students from various schools in my area. These include “The First Book For Pianists” for Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach, “Clementi, Six Sonatinas Opus 36”, “Chopin, An Introduction to His Piano Work”, plus several others, all of which I suspect people at this website are familiar with. Essentially, I would progress in the US School of Music to a certain point, then try some pieces from music books. When I had learned all the easiest ones, I would return to the US School of Music and progress a few more lessons. This often raised my skill level a notch. Then I would return to the music books to try some slightly harder pieces. Working in this manner at my own pace I made very good progress by my standards. Most importantly, I was enjoying myself because I was playing music that was far more enjoyable that what I saw in standard piano method books.

I do not suggest that anyone who is using a standard method book like Alfred with success should change. Continue doing what you have discovered works for you. Rather, I offer this post as an alternative for those who for whatever reason are frustrated with standard method books.

luapparc, welcome to PW! I've been intrigued with your post and comments on the older style method books and have enjoyed reading your post on how they have encouraged you to move forward on your own. I knew I had some older method books tucked away in my collection and upon locating two of them they are not any of the names you mention. My small collection consists of Schmidt's Education Series (1907) and School for the Pianoforte by Theo. Presser (1912). They are wonderul books and I'm glad I found your post which lead me to pull them out and review.

Anyone on this board would be impressed with the dedication you have placed and your eagerness in learning how to play the piano. I applaud you for your efforts.

If you are ever interested in joining the local MA PW group at a gathering, we would be pleased to meet your acquaintance as I'm sure you would enjoy meeting the members of our well-seasoned group. We're a varied collection of piano hobbiests and each person offers something special to the group.

Even if you are not ready to play in front of a crowd, I'm sure you would enjoy the conversation, music and camaraderie of piano obsessed people.

Most of our gatherings take place at Larry Buck's piano shop at one of the old mill buildings in Lowell. If you haven't already checked out the Forum Members Parties, Tours Gathering section, I would like to encourage you to review some of our past gatherings.

The Mason & Hamlin tour (Haverhill) will be taking place on May 12th and while the 40 slots have been accounted for there is an alternates list setup in the event of cancelations.

Here is a link to our May piano adventures!

I hope we will have the opportunity to meet you during our upcoming May events.

I enjoy every minute that I play regardless of how good or how bad the music is. That is real joy at the piano.

- Mark

I am impressed by your love for the instrument and for playing it.

What a coincidence. I also have several of Theodore Presser’s “Standard Graded Course of Studies for the Piano Forte in Ten Grades” One thing I like about these is the suggested practice pieces that are suitable for each grade. Since I had no teacher and knew very little about music, I appreciated this advice. For example, it was in the Grade II book that I read the advice to try Beethoven’s Sonatina in G, which I later found out is regularly assigned to music students today.

Thank you so much for the invitation. However, due to medical problems, such socializing is almost impossible for me. I’m afraid that at 82 years of age I am no longer agile. Indeed, I was at the hospital today because of complications, the details of which are not important here. I envy those who are older than me and in better health. However, when I hear from my granddaughter Jennifer, who is a nurse, about the poor health of her patients, many of whom are twenty years younger than me, I am thankful. Anyway, I’m afraid my interaction with the piano community will have to remain online in the foreseeable future.

Jennifer, who plays piano better than me by the way, has been encouraging me to become more active with my piano playing, telling me that it will add years to my life. Perhaps I will consider submitting a recording at the next recital? Being an engineer, I had no trouble figuring out how to save my performances in my piano’s memory, and then using a computer controlled digital-to-analog converter connected to the auxiliary audio output channel of the piano, digitizing it and saving it in mp3 format. Indeed, I was the one who taught Jennifer how to do this. She still needs her gramps! I do admit that as the years pass I am losing pieces that I once played. However, the challenge of the recital activity here at PianoWorld.com may help slow down that process.

The U.S. Course is currently on Ebay. Actually I think three editions of the course are included on one DVD in PDF format. Coincidence?

I just checked for myself. There are currently two sellers listing the US School of Music piano course and three sellers listing portions of the Sherwood Music School material. Like I said, this material appears quite regularly. By the way, there are many other courses that regularly appear, including Theodore Presser’s “Standard Graded Course of Studies for the Piano Forte in Ten Grades”, which Terrytunes mentioned and which I have purchased. There are many others that I have not tried that might be good as well.

Hi Luappac,

Guess what? I was a student of the Sherwood Music School course. As a young man, my piano teacher used the program as part of my piano education. I still have the program in relatively good condition, given the fact that it is about 40 years old. One other member of the forum used the program too. You say that it is available of E-bay? I will have to search because I am missing a few of the Advanced section materials. I ended with the Advanced A section. It was a wonderful program and very comprehensive. Actually, at the end of the program one obtained a certificate to teach piano!
Best Regards,
Nick

Wonderful to hear from you. Yes, you can complete your collection of Sherwood Music School material by monitoring regularly eBay. The sellers appearing right now are selling only very small parts. Also, they are asking far too much for so few pages in my opinion. However, occasionally someone lists the complete set of four envelopes for one or more levels. That’s what you should look for.

I’m glad to hear you say that it was a wonderful program. I have found it very good despite the fact that I do not have a teacher. The theory lessons are particularly good. They answered for me many curiosity questions about music that I had when I was first beginning, questions that private teachers could not respond to.

I am under the impression that the material is no longer used. I wonder if you would know if that is true, and if so, why not? Do you think the material is obsolete? It’s hard to believe that material published about 50 years ago that is written about a subject that is several hundred years old (music and piano) would become obsolete. But I am not qualified to judge. Do you think by studying this material without a teacher I am making a mistake? And, if the material is still good, why is it not more popular here on PianoWorld.com? Perhaps it's the style of the presentation?

Hey Luapparc,

When I think of the incredible music composed and performed by generations of pianists who never saw a Faber, Alfred's, Bastien, etc., one wonders, what was wrong with the old ways.

Charles Cooke's, Playing the Piano for Pleasure, recommended reading by many in the forum, sparked a greater interest, for me, in understanding the differences between these newer publications and older approaches.

I've just started to learn to play. I like having a teacher. We're looking to move on to a new book/level and I'm working at trying to convince her to go old school. So, your post is of great interest to me.

Thanks.

l's dad