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Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972566
07/21/08 05:07 PM
07/21/08 05:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,354
The Netherlands, Grootegast-Gr...
Johan B Offline
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Johan B  Offline
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The Netherlands, Grootegast-Gr...
.......advanced intermediate?........

I don't know.....my music is...... I enjoy music....


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Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972567
07/21/08 05:17 PM
07/21/08 05:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,553
Jacksonville, Florida
Oxfords Gal Offline
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Oxfords Gal  Offline
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Posts: 1,553
Jacksonville, Florida
No problems with disagreeing, everyone has their opinions and I respect everyones opinion.


Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear, Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair.>>> Herman Munster
Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972568
07/21/08 05:42 PM
07/21/08 05:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,368
mr_super-hunky Offline OP
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mr_super-hunky  Offline OP
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Posts: 4,368
Originally posted by Oxfords Gal:

No problems with disagreeing, everyone has their opinions and I respect everyones opinion.

I TOTALLY disagree with that statement. Everyone may have their own opinion on a subject but if it does'nt agree with mine, it's wrong!. that's just the way it is and NO I don't live in a bubble or am out of touch with reality! :p .

In terms of learning to improvise/creating your own music is concerned. I think it is a combination of both learned/taught skills as well as some amount of inner talent being expressed.

Myself for exampe, I CAN read music but I hate to. I just get so much more pleasure out of creating my own melodies, even if it's in the form of hacking up someone elses arrangement eek .

I know I have the creative talent deep within me to produce beautiful melodies but I don't have the proper level (training/experience) to accurately get them out just yet.

What this means is that over time, with more practice/training/experience, I know I will be able to better produce a more accurate representation of the melodies in my head since I will have more experience as to where the notes are located and won't have to *hunt* them down by ker-plunking the nearby keys to find them.

I STRONGLY believe that some people have more *potential* to becoming a really good improviser/composer than others. Again, this may have to do with the fact that some people are more structured/analytical thinkers while others are more creative.

Of course, as with everything, I'm just making this up.....but I may be right! wink

Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972569
07/21/08 07:06 PM
07/21/08 07:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Cibolo, Texas
melissa d Offline
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melissa d  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Cibolo, Texas
I would say beginner. I haven't been playing a year yet so I am happy with this. I may be an advanced beginner on my really good days.


My blog such as it is http://melissasjourneys.blogspot.com
Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972570
07/21/08 07:27 PM
07/21/08 07:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,462
Denver, CO
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
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DragonPianoPlayer  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,462
Denver, CO
When I rate myself as Intermediate, it is based on the scale used for repertoire and teaching material - basically a "classical teaching" scale.

On this scale - Advanced is the expeced level to start an undergraduate college program. There is quite a spread from advanced up to a professional or virtuoso.

Early Beginner - no hand movement, limited hand coordination, mostly play each hand separately or very limited accompianment in left hand, whole, half, and quarter notes.

Beginner - Simple hands together playing, whole, half, quarter, dotted half notes, introducing eighth notes.

Late beginner - Starting extensions and position movement, whole, half, quarter, dotted half and quarter notes and eighth notes, more developed hands together playing.

Early intermediate - more independent left hand playing, starting with sixteenth notes and triplets.

Intermediate - melody starts being developed in both hands, proficient in sixteenth notes, more complex rhythms including syncopation, very easy counter point.

Late intermediate - melody in either hand or moving between hands, more complicated rhythms including syncopation, irregular rhythms between hands and start of poly-rhythms. Thirtysecond notes come in in intermediate to late intermediate.

Early advanced / advanced / late advanced is more a matter of the technical difficulty of the pieces.

I'm not saying any other scale is wrong, just that this is the one I view myself on.

Rich


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Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972571
07/21/08 07:43 PM
07/21/08 07:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 610
New Mexico
S
SantaFe_Player Offline
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SantaFe_Player  Offline
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S

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 610
New Mexico
Hmmmm. Not sure what you mean by Advanced levels. I'm a returner, rather than a beginner, and I have a lot of years of lessons under my belt as well as conservatory-type study and recitals, plus a gig with the symphony (woo) and the few years of teaching I did. But a 15-year hiatus can whittle away at one's "level."

Unless you reserve the "Advanced" categories for career performing pianists, I'd guess I'm "beginning advanced" or possibly "advanced intermediate." Or was at one time. Mind you, this is performance level, not composing or improvising or ad-hoc anything - it's once I've got a piece down cold. I read pretty well, too, and have retained enough theory from my years as a music major to make good use of it in learning pieces (it also helps with the sight reading). All this pertains to so-called "classical" type piano. I'd be horrible at jazz or new age, although I did have a blast one year as the keyboard in the rock band for a production of Godspell smile We wailed.


SantaFe_Player
Heels down, and tickle the bit.
Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972572
07/21/08 07:54 PM
07/21/08 07:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,049
Phoenix Metro, AZ
P
ProdigalPianist Offline
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ProdigalPianist  Offline
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P

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,049
Phoenix Metro, AZ
Using Dragon's scale, (which makes sense to me) I guess I'm late intermediate/early advanced. 20 years ago I was a college music ed major...but that was 20 years ago, and sadly, I've not owned a piano in my adult life (still don't...thank goodness for university practice rooms!).

I still think of myself as late intermediate altho my teacher persists in giving me advanced level pieces wink ...which I can play but I think I learn them slower than an advanced player (which I was at one time) would.

Edited to add: I've never known what "level" I played at because my teachers didn't use graded levels like the RCM or whatever organizations used...they always had me play things from a range of different levels at the same time. I always wished I knew what level I was playing at! smile


Adult Amateur Pianist

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Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972573
07/21/08 08:15 PM
07/21/08 08:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,091
Richmond, VA
plays88skeys Offline
3000 Post Club Member
plays88skeys  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,091
Richmond, VA
Quote
Originally posted by mr_super-hunky:
Very nice chart theowne.

Rosanna, correlating progress to the amount of years playing may be a tough one as there will be so many exceptions to the rule.

Having said that, if I were to guess, it may be something like this:

.1 year = beginer beginer
.2 years = beginer
.3 years = advaned beginer
.4 years = begining intermediate
.5 years = intermediate
.6 years = advaned intermediate
.7 years = begining advanced
.8 years = advanced
.9 years = advanced
.10 years = advanced advanced

I'm going into my 13th year of lessons and would classify myself as somewhere between advanced intermediate and beginning advanced. As an example, right now I'm working on two pieces, and according the RCM syllabus one is a grade 8 and one is a grade 10. They are equally challenging!


There are no shortcuts to any place worth going. - Beverly Sills
Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972574
07/21/08 08:43 PM
07/21/08 08:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,337
B
bluekeys Offline
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bluekeys  Offline
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B

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,337
I would say you're still a beginner if people say, "You're good for only playing X long." You become intermediate when they just say, "You're good." smile

Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972575
07/21/08 09:01 PM
07/21/08 09:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member
jazzwee  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
Knotty, it's a tough standard on your scale since the gap between a "professional" and "world class" is plenty huge. In fact, let's just say it's unreachable for most. There's a small number of world class pianists.

If I have to judge myself against Chick Corea, I'd be a beginner for the rest of my life. I'd be good enough at some point to teach jazz at some music school but I'd still be a beginner.

Based on that standard, Hiromi against Chick Corea, Hiromi would be intermediate at best. And yet Hiromi gets to play at Lincoln Center, makes a bunch of records and gets in the cover of Keyboard Mag. Still she's no Chick Corea. 90% of the world's jazz piano players would be stuck at early beginner even after all their study.

So at least the way I'm defining the scale for myself is competence. Someone who is advanced is competent to play and competent to improvise (yes, you cannot achieve any advanced level in jazz without being able to improvise on any tune).

However, I stop at that as judging my compositional skills, or creating improvisations that are memorable for a lifetime would be reserved for the Bach's and Beethoven equivalents of Jazz.

To me an advanced player should be able to make some statement in their solos. Some will make a better statement than others.

Some are able to do this even while their technique isn't even fully developed. Think of guys like Herbie Hancock or Billy Strayhorn that composed exceptional music in their teens!

So maybe I'm defining it as technical proficiency. The artistry level is for someone else to judge.

Maybe we could also say that if you feel you can cut some records/CD's, then you probably think of yourself as plenty advanced. Or I figure if pro-musicians are willing to play on your trio, then I think you must be doing ok.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972576
07/21/08 09:01 PM
07/21/08 09:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,414
SouthWest Michigan
R
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Roger Ransom  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
R

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,414
SouthWest Michigan
I have to say that it depends on the type of music. I believe I am advanced when it comes to playing improvised 'Swing' type music from lead sheets/fake books. People hire me for background music.

Jazz, I am sort of early intermediate - I can do simple improvisations but don't know much of anything about modes and all that stuff.

Classical, probably intermediate, from what I read about the grading system (they didn't talk about it when I took lessons many years ago) I can play grade 7 or 8 and sometime a little deeper if it doesn't require too much speed.

Boogie - beginner but trying.


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Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972577
07/22/08 07:42 AM
07/22/08 07:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,553
Jacksonville, Florida
Oxfords Gal Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Oxfords Gal  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,553
Jacksonville, Florida
Mr. Super Hunky
Quote
TOTALLY disagree with that statement. Everyone may have their own opinion on a subject but if it does'nt agree with mine, it's wrong!. that's just the way it is and NO I don't live in a bubble or am out of touch with reality! .
ha ha ha you're too funny. laugh


Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear, Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair.>>> Herman Munster
Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972578
07/22/08 07:43 AM
07/22/08 07:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
knotty Offline
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knotty  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Jazzwee,

Like I said, my scale might be screwed up, it's the one I used. In fact, it is bad because it totally fails to work for classical.

Again, the issue here is determining a distinct set of competencies between all 9 levels defined in the original post.

Until I have that, it is impossible for me to honestly assess in which of the 9 I fall in.


Bluekeys:
Yeah, that's what I call "a tell" smile
The corollary to that is:
If you tell someone you've only played a year or two, they immediately listen with a hyper critical ear and come up with crap like:
"it lacks nuance"
That cracks me up.

So here's a good story I love to tell:
I'm into recording. One of my buddie (who knows that) comes over to pick me up. He's musically challenged (as most people are). I always try to introduce him to new stuff, so I pick up our good friend Chick Corea' Armando's Rhumba on "My Spanish Heart". I love that stuff.
We put it on, we listen to a few bars, I say what do you think?
He says:
It's ok, a little rough around the edges.
I'm a little stumped at that point...
Then he says: Who's on the violin.
I say, I honestly don't know.
He says: What do you mean, didn't you record this?

It really made me laugh, it's so typical ...

Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972579
07/22/08 08:35 AM
07/22/08 08:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,527
Jersey Shore
M
Mark... Offline
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Mark...  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,527
Jersey Shore
It nice to know with consistant practice over time I will move up to different and higher levels...

I've seen some major changes over my first 18 months even though I'm at the beginner hack level...but I'm doing things I never thought possible...

Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972580
07/22/08 10:02 AM
07/22/08 10:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,553
Jacksonville, Florida
Oxfords Gal Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Oxfords Gal  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,553
Jacksonville, Florida
I don't know about these rating systems. This is classified as early intermediate but it looks more like beginners to me. If this is early Intermediate then I'm in the Intermediate category.

From what I've seen so far, lots of people are really underating themselves. Some of the people who say they're beginners are really Intermediate. They play like someone who has had at least 3 years of lessons.

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store...cm_mmc=smp-_-detail-_-lookinside-_-image


Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear, Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair.>>> Herman Munster
Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972581
07/22/08 10:25 AM
07/22/08 10:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 278
Charleston, SC
Cyborg Offline
Full Member
Cyborg  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 278
Charleston, SC
Quote
Originally posted by Oxfords Gal:
...From what I've seen so far, lots of people are really underating themselves. Some of the people who say they're beginners are really Intermediate. They play like someone who has had at least 3 years of lessons...
I agree that there is a lot of people underating themselves. I guess it's self-confidence issues that many adults seem to have. I know I'm one of them.

An honest assessment based on my teacher's feedback, Dragon's list and SheetMusicPlus' criteria I'm at an intermediate level.


I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.
Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972582
07/22/08 10:47 AM
07/22/08 10:47 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 24
western australia
M
mollyp Offline
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mollyp  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 24
western australia
hi i have to answer to this one, but according to my old teacher - early intermediate -but-from my new teacher -early beginner-as you may tell-i am not impressd-oh well. back to 5 fingers abd no chords for me as yet.

Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972583
07/22/08 10:48 AM
07/22/08 10:48 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
S
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member
sotto voce  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I don't believe that the guideline to levels at Sheet Music Plus should be taken too seriously. It reads as though someone took a traditional scale, lopped the advanced portion off entirely and then redistributed the remainder (i.e., what should be intermediate is now inflated to advanced, and what should be advanced is off the chart entirely).

I didn't glean this immediately from the skills or musical devices cited for the various levels, as I know nothing about pedagogy. It's more apparent from the repertoire cited in the "Examples" column. Just to mention a couple dubious ones: Burgmüller's Opus 100 is listed as intermediate (!), and Brahms' Rhapsodies Op. 79 are in the most advanced spot (10 on a scale of 0 to 10).

I can understand that it might be unrealistic to include virtuoso showpieces on the scale (because, after all, how many people reach that level?)—but a big range of difficult music that's a standard part of the piano repertoire (and to which serious, skilled students can reasonably aspire) is simply ignored here.

FWIW, here\'s a link to a chart of graded classical pieces in which the standards are much more aggressive.

Steven

Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972584
07/22/08 12:09 PM
07/22/08 12:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member
jazzwee  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
Quote
Originally posted by knotty:

So here's a good story I love to tell:
I'm into recording. One of my buddie (who knows that) comes over to pick me up. He's musically challenged (as most people are). I always try to introduce him to new stuff, so I pick up our good friend Chick Corea' Armando's Rhumba on "My Spanish Heart". I love that stuff.
We put it on, we listen to a few bars, I say what do you think?
He says:
It's ok, a little rough around the edges.
I'm a little stumped at that point...
Then he says: Who's on the violin.
I say, I honestly don't know.
He says: What do you mean, didn't you record this?

It really made me laugh, it's so typical ...
That's pretty funny Knotty! laugh

My other measure of assessment is pretty stupid actually but at least it's something. I remember that last year, I would go to Guitar Center and would just freeze up and would be self-conscious about what I can play while there are people around in the Keyboard section.

Now (Finally!), I just sit there and jam on a piano and I hear many soften their playing or stop entirely to listen. Someone actually told me he did stop playing to listen. And I play continuously with confidence and just improvise the whole time.

So there's my proof. I'm a wannabe that made a succesful debut at Guitar Center laugh

A couple of days ago, before a meeting I was in began, I started playing on a nearby piano (something I do each month). What was different this time was one of the people asked me if I had a Band and that it sounded beautiful. The same person never made a comment before. So that's when I felt I crossed a certain bar recently.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: So, how good are you?....(honest assessment) #972585
07/22/08 01:16 PM
07/22/08 01:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
knotty Offline
3000 Post Club Member
knotty  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
That's great news Jazzwee!

Gotta love Guitar Center!

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