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Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969435 03/06/08 06:56 PM
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Come on guys, Mr Kitty didn't say he was a pro and you should be arguing against what he wrote rather then referencing his age...

Edit: Ah, OK, yes he did say he was a pro... ignore me about that bit...

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Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969436 03/06/08 07:10 PM
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lol if you don't believe me watch my videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HFR5D70oyw

I know a large fraction of my audience is made up of amateurs.
I can assure you I'm not the unreasonable, maladjusted individual who gets his kicks out of putting down amateur pianists that you guys seem to think I am.

I once heard Andre Laplante (famous Canadian pianist) say everyone has 3 ages. A physical age, a psychological age, and an artistic age.

If composers intended for beginners to play easy arrangements of their greatest works they would have made such arrangements themselves.

I know so many dozens of amateur pianists who bravely tackle challenging repertoire and frequently perform great works very successfully.
There is a longstanding tradition that people learn easier pieces first, before graduating to more complex works. I have been immersed in this tradition since I was three years old and took up Suzuki violin.
Arrangements of great works for beginners are simply not part of this tradition. There are many reasons for this. You must learn to play simple pieces beautifully first. The problem with these arrangements is that they are NOT simple pieces. They are complex pieces that have been simplified (often but not always unskillfully). Desipite the simplification, the
melodies remain
full of richness and complexity which requires great subltety in order to do justice to these incredible composers. Beginning players simply lack the ability to play it should be played.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't have fun playing easy arrangements in your own home. By all means, go nuts.

If you ask me, however, these arrangements are inappropriate for beginning students to learn. They should learn music which was composed for the perpose of teaching young students. Clementi and so many others composed delightful works which help to develop the skillsets you will need to take on more advanced pieces.
Easy arrangements of the Raindrop prelude, Rhapsody in Blue, and God knows what else DO NOT help the student develop the skills they will need later on. There is so much beautiful music out there that is appropriate for beginners to learn.
If you don't want to conform to tradition, I couldn't care less.
I have stated my reasons clearly.
This is just my opinion.
Take it or leave it.

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969437 03/06/08 07:26 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
I have stated my reasons clearly.
Yes you have. At least 3 times now. smile
Can you accept that not everyone needs to reach your level?
That we don't share your feelings of insulting the composer.
If they were alive today they would love to have some mailbox money coming in from copyrights. ha

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969438 03/06/08 07:33 PM
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I understand that what Mr. Kitty is saying is not that there is a level to be reached, but that practicing is a vehicle toward the skills we need to play in a satisfactory manner. And that playing these pieces in that way will undermine the ability to acquire these skills.

It depends on goals. For those of us who wish to be able to play recognizeable tunes, and derive pleasure out of that, the advice is not necessary. For those of us who want to get some of those skills, it is a welcome caveat.

At that point choices are to be made, and I understand those choices will be respected. I'm an adult student myself, and unfortunately not a young one.

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969439 03/06/08 07:46 PM
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Mr_Kitty wrote:
I can assure you I'm not the unreasonable, maladjusted individual who gets his kicks out of putting down amateur pianists that you guys seem to think I am.

You have done a pretty good job of convincing me that you are.


When a door is partially open, it is ajar. So, when a jar is partially open why isn't it adoor?
Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969440 03/06/08 08:00 PM
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When you play an easy arrangement of something by Chopin, Chopin is looking down at you from heaven saying
"Why are you butchering my beautiful music? You aren't ready for it yet. Please enjoy the music that is appropriate for your current level of playing."
---------------------------------------

I would have said the same, but it seems that Chopin sends different signals to Orez Eno and me.. wink

I'd still say that had Chopin thought it sooo beautiful to have his melodies around in simplified versions, he would have done them himself, making also some not despicable money in the process.
Think of it, he could have labelled the series "My First Chopin", "My Intermediate Chopin" and "My Advanced Chopin", a bit like Steinway, Boston and Essex.. wink .

Again, I am not aware of Chopin or Beethoven etc. doing such things; allow myself to think that this was *not* a coincidence; and do not think that they would not have liked the money...

The day I go in greener pastures I will not fail to ask him, though... wink


"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin
Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969441 03/06/08 08:12 PM
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Just because you don't intend to become a professional pianist doesn't mean you shouldn't always try your best to improve.

dvs cycles-
when in this thread did i EVER say ANYone had to reach my level. Do not put words in my mouth.
I said I know many amateur pianists who play at a very respectable level. Many of them started late in life.
No one has to reach any levels here.
I'm sorry some of you folks
don't seem to be interested in improvement.
If your pianist aspirations are to be able to play an arrangement of the Raindrop prelude then don't even bother to read my posts.
If you are interested in being able to perform a
Beethoven Sonata in front of your friends and family, then the best way to go about getting there does not involve playing beginner arrangements of advanced works.
There is no need for conflict, insults, or any incivility whatsoever.

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969442 03/06/08 08:14 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by luapparc:
What exactly are you trying to accomplish by personally insulting their efforts in music? It seems to me that after being subjected to your pompous, bigoted, and condescending attitude these people might be a lot less likely to pay good money to see you play, no matter how good you are.
Hi,

When I first read one of Mr_Kitty's many strongly opinionated posts I had exactly the same reaction.... who is this pompous twerp!?

But it's easy to get the wrong idea over the internet, so I checked out a few more of his posts. Firstly, I listened to some of his self promoting videos. After wincing part through a couple of them I realised that a) he was nowhere near as good as he was trying to make out and b) he was pretty much still a kid playing on Mum's piano.

OK, nothing wrong with any of that.... he still plays better than I do, and also undoubtedly knows plenty of things about piano that I don't yet. So I still might learn something from him.

After reading one of his diatribes about certain aspects of digital pianos, I also realised that he didn't always know what he was talking about either. But (like many of us... wink ) he wasn't going to let a little thing like not knowing all the facts stand in the way of a good rave... laugh

So that changed my view a bit. If he doesn't mind some of the posters here thinking of him as a somewhat mouthy kid who rather overdoes the self promotion of himself as an 'expert', then that's OK. Compared to guitar forums, the level of unthinking rudeness about others is generally very low here. I rather like the fact that the posters here aren't all the same as me - they have different ages, different skill levels, different characters, varied opinions etc. I don't have to agree with everybody, or even like them much - it's just all part of the rich tapestry of the Internet, to be taken with a grain of salt.... make that a handful of salt... smile

I'm not always going to agree with Mr_K, or anybody else here, and I sometimes wish that certain posters would think more about the reactions of other members before posting. But on the other hand, I'd rather have a few other posters whose style and opinions I strongly disagree with, than a bland homogenous mix that never raised my eyebrows. cool

Cheers,

Chris


Who needs feet of clay? I can get into enough trouble with feet made of regular foot stuff...
Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969443 03/06/08 08:23 PM
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lol Late Beginner
which ones did you wince through?

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969444 03/06/08 08:36 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
lol Late Beginner
which ones did you wince through?
Geez.... you're asking an old guy like me to remember details like that.... eek

All that I can recall was that you had attached some covering remarks about being disappointed with the sound quality of both the recording device, and your Mum's piano.

I (smugly) agreed with what you said, but was also pleased (in an entirely self serving and small-minded way of course...) to discover that you weren't quite Horowitz yet either. It almost, but not quite, offset my slight feeling of irritation at what you could do that I can't yet... wink

Please feel free to direct me towards more masterful renditions. smile I have to go out for a few hours right now, but I'm always willing to have my opinions revised upwards. thumb

Cheers,

Chris


Who needs feet of clay? I can get into enough trouble with feet made of regular foot stuff...
Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969445 03/06/08 08:57 PM
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Lol I don't ever recall claiming to be Horowitz wink
Everything you need to be able to play exactly like me is in the posts I have made all over this forum.
I guarantee that.
It's all there.

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969446 03/06/08 09:03 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by luapparc:
Oh, one last message to OREZ_ENO. I have visited heaven often during my many near death experiences and I have spoken to Frederic Chopin himself. He wants you to know that he approves very much of your rendition of Valse in A Minor. But he asks that you try to play it just a little faster.
Welcome to the forum, luapparc! With posts like that, I hope you hang around for a long, long while. smile

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969447 03/06/08 10:58 PM
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I've come to the stark realization that what I suggested in one of my previous posts above is absolutely true: MR_Kitty is "puting us on".

He's playing little adolescent mind-games with us. He's simply engaged in the tedious and rather silly scheme of deliberately aggitating - of trying to provoke negative reactions and stir up the proverbial hornets nest with all sorts of inane comments, pretentious assertions and outrageous opinions - all for the"sport" of it.

He's not serious at all - he simply couldn't be. It's more than obvious that he doesn't really believe anything he says, and couldn't care less what anyone here thinks or says about him or the comments in his posts.

Actually when you read back thru his posts, nobody really could think the way he does or really believe the things he says. To do so you would have to be an incredibly egotistical clown, and I would hate to think that of anyone here. Nobody could possibly be this immature or unencumbered by the thought-process.

Hence, the only alternative is my above stated conclusion about his real motives & intensions.

Maybe if we ignore him he'll just take his boring and childish games somewhere else. I think most of us would prefer to keep the discussion in the forums on a more pleasant, mature & rational level.

MR_Kitty - don't go away mad, but please just go away. Come back in 20-25 years when you've grown up and wised up.

Thanks, JF


Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more, bark less.
Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969448 03/06/08 11:16 PM
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:rolleyes:

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969449 03/07/08 12:06 AM
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John Frank, with all due respect - this forum is for all of us. I would like to choose whose posts I read, and whose posts I don't read. You are free to do the same. Do not take it upon yourself to decide on behalf on everyone here who is welcome to stay and who should leave.

I understand that the rules of netiquette dictate that arguments are to be made on ideas which are addressed according to the actual ideas; value judgements on ideas are somewhat tolerated; adjectives describing people are not acceptable.

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969450 03/07/08 06:51 AM
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Hi everyone

I'm new to playing the piano and have had two lessons.

I've seen some of the beginning songs in the Alfred book and they are good songs but not the songs I want to be able to play when I'm 'good'.

I said as much to my piano teacher and he said I could practice some simpler versions of the songs I do like. Furthermore he got me started on learning some basic chord progressions.

So hopefully next lesson I can start on learning some Mariah Carey songs etc.

It may not sound as good as what the song was supposed to be like but I'll just be happy playing something that sounds like the songs I like haha. Also, in time I intend to get better and better at playing those songs I like so it's not like an end but rather just the starting point.

It's great to see different opinions on this though and I respect everyones point of view smile

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969451 03/07/08 09:13 AM
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Mr. Kitty wrote:

Quote
There is no need for conflict, insults, or any incivility whatsoever.
I think some of the responders are in danger of making Mr. Kitty appear to be the most reasonable participant in this thread. wink

While the tone of this discussion has gotten a little warm, I don't find any of the arguments put forth to be unreasonable. (Except maybe those about Chopin in heaven.) There are good reasons on both sides, and I don't see any need to settle the issue. People will do what they want anyway. At least we have learned why they make the choices they do.

Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969452 03/08/08 10:20 AM
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Mr_Kitty wrote:
There is no need for conflict, insults, or any incivility whatsoever.

However…

Mr_Kitty wrote:
The watered-down versions always suck compared to the real thing.

Mr_Kitty wrote:
When you play an easy arrangement of something by Chopin, Chopin is looking down at you from heaven saying, "Why are you butchering my beautiful music?"

Mr_Kitty wrote:
To play dumbed-down arrangements of great works before you are ready for the real thing is showing disrespect to these composers.


Such statements are insulting and uncivil, and anyone could have predicted that they would lead to a conflict.


Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.
Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969453 03/08/08 11:47 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Matt H:
There are good reasons on both sides, and I don't see any need to settle the issue. People will do what they want anyway. At least we have learned why they make the choices they do.
Well said.


If I had ever learnt, I should have been a great proficient.
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Re: "Real" v.s. Easy Pieces?
#969454 03/08/08 11:52 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by keystring:
John Frank, with all due respect - this forum is for all of us.

JF: Agreed.

I would like to choose whose posts I read, and whose posts I don't read.

JF: I will defend your right to do so.

You are free to do the same.

JF: Thanks - I appreciate yor recogniton of that.

Do not take it upon yourself to decide on behalf on everyone here who is welcome to stay and who should leave.

JF: You're right - no one should do that.
However, since MR_Kitty did not seem to be willing to be rational or understanding or helpful in his comments, and more, seemed to be deliberately aggitating for the sole purpose of stirring up a heated, but senseless, debate I merely suggested that his slightly "skewed" sense of communication with his fellow pianists might be more fully appreciated elsewhere - at least until he became a liitle more mature in his approach. MR_Kitty is certainly more than welcome to join the discussion anywhere he chooses - but one would hope that it would be on a somewhat higher level of cooperative & helpful exchange.

I understand that the rules of netiquette dictate that arguments are to be made on ideas which are addressed according to the actual ideas; value judgements on ideas are somewhat tolerated; adjectives describing people are not acceptable.

JF: Again, I agree fully and I apologize for the use of any and all terms of personal disparagement.My only excuse is this: it was a choice of coming to the conclusion that MR_Kitty was either (1) an arrogant, immature, snobbish, condescending "gentleman" lacking a great deal of wisdom or (2) a juvenile prankster playing tedious little mind games that only grade school bullies would appreciate. I chose to "cut him a break" and assume that the 2nd choice was correct.

Thanks for your kind and well-phrased reprimands and for giving me a chance to clarify my position.

JF


Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more, bark less.
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