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Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968331
05/28/04 04:59 PM
05/28/04 04:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 478
Arlington,VA
Catlady Offline
Full Member
Catlady  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 478
Arlington,VA
What he said.


Cathy Harl - former piano dealer and tech.
Currently making and designing jewelry.
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968332
05/28/04 05:07 PM
05/28/04 05:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,773
Boulder, Colorado
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member
KlavierBauer  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,773
Boulder, Colorado
Go Gettem Frank!

I am happy to do anything that I can to help in this matter.

... And I'm not just saying that because everyone else is... I really am bothered by the issue that people can't say what they want to say without being intimidated or bullied around.

A number of dealers have already offered to back you up, and I think most of us mean it.
Let us know if there's anything we can do to help you out.

Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968333
05/28/04 07:51 PM
05/28/04 07:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,044
Colorado
M
Manitou Offline
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Manitou  Offline
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M

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,044
Colorado
I second all the other seconds thus far.

I think it's time to tell all, and show us the face of this bully, so we really with facts, can direct potential customers elsewhere.

Could we settle this in a "ring", and I might do battle for the Forum honour? I should like this I think.


Manitou - Pianist - Technician
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968334
05/28/04 08:10 PM
05/28/04 08:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 518
La Quinta, CA
E
Eric F Offline
500 Post Club Member
Eric F  Offline
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E

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 518
La Quinta, CA
Is there an original thread somewhere in the past forums that lead to the current "threat" letter? I'm a little lost as to what was said to whom. Also,will I be sued for asking to republish the original thread? Just curious. Eric


Eric Frankson
"Music comes first from my heart, and then goes upstairs to my head where I check it out." - Roberta Flack
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968335
05/28/04 08:16 PM
05/28/04 08:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,773
Boulder, Colorado
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member
KlavierBauer  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,773
Boulder, Colorado
Eric,
This has come up a couple of times, which is why you're seeing such an outcry this time.

Frank removed the original thread to protect himself, but it sounds like he might be coming to the point where he's not going to take it anymore.

edit: and let's not take this to the ring Frank... for the other guy's sake. I've sparred with Manitou, and he's L-E-T-H-A-L. He's like the mean kid from the Cobra-Kai Dojo in Karate Kid.

Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968336
05/28/04 08:23 PM
05/28/04 08:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 518
La Quinta, CA
E
Eric F Offline
500 Post Club Member
Eric F  Offline
500 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 518
La Quinta, CA
Well, sign me on. This forum is both incredibly insightfull as well as entertaining. With thousands of members, Frank has alot of political backing. I wouldn't want to get in the ring with him. In fact, I'd bet on him. wink


Eric Frankson
"Music comes first from my heart, and then goes upstairs to my head where I check it out." - Roberta Flack
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968337
05/28/04 08:43 PM
05/28/04 08:43 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,342
Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Piano World Offline OP

6000 Post Club Member
Piano World  Offline OP

6000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,342
Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Let's see now, most of the people responding to this thread have agreed we need to take a stand going forward, and not be bullied anymore.

They agree the Piano World Piano Forums are valueable, and by and large provide a worthwhile service to the piano community.

Now, were all of these responders just piano lovers who count themselves as our friends?

NO! A large number of them are also PIANO DEALERS, PIANO TECHNICIANS, PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS, and ... gasp ... LAWYERS!

That should tell you something.

People with nothing to hide (aka, honest people) aren't afraid of our Piano Forums.

Thank you all for your kind offers of support.
This ain't over.

We will draft a strong disclaimer, provide some guidelines to posting, and a warning to any future trouble makers, and we will stand by them.

We will continue to be as fair as possible, and admit our mistakes. But if our members post something negative and it's true, suck it up!

A lot of people depend on us to help them sort the truth from the lies and myths, and damn it, that's what they are going to get.


- Frank B.
Founder / Owner / Host
PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Find Us On:
Facebook.com/PianoWorldDotCom
ProRecord.info
www.youtube.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.linkedin.com/in/pianoworld
Skype: PianoWorldDotCom
My Keyboards:
Estonia L-190 w/ ProRecord, Yamaha P-80, Estey 1895 Pump Organ, Harpsichord (kit), Clavichord (kit), Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880
-------------------------
It's Fun To Play the Piano ... PLEASE Pass It On!
Please invite every piano enthusiast you know to join our piano forums!


Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968338
05/28/04 08:49 PM
05/28/04 08:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,971
Maine
kathyk Offline
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kathyk  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,971
Maine
Yippee, yah, yeah, Frank! I'm with you. thumb

Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968339
05/28/04 09:41 PM
05/28/04 09:41 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,286
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rich Galassini Offline
Platinum Subscriber
Rich Galassini  Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,286
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Sorry I am late to this party - let me know what I can do to help Frank!


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968340
05/28/04 11:09 PM
05/28/04 11:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,789
Plainfield, IL
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Matt G.  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,789
Plainfield, IL
Quote
Originally posted by Piano World:
In this short lived thread (I pulled it), 4 different members advised staying away from a particular dealer, even giving a specific example why. Three of the members are long time posters, and not given to raising false alarms.
Oh, THEM! (Now I know who Frank's talking about. laugh )

This sort of behavior seems hardly out of line with the rest of the practices of that particular operation, if what I've heard about it bears any resemblance to the truth (which I have no reason to doubt, as it's been corroborated on numerous occasions). Well, you can guarantee that I certainly will have a MUCH more vehement denunciation to make if I am ever asked my opinion about that particular dealership. And it really is saying something when some poor schlub like me, all the way out here in the Midwest, knows about this dealer's reputation!

It seems to me that the outfit that had their lawyer send Frank a nasty-gram isn't all that business savvy. What better way to have your already shaky reputation sullied even further than by behaving in a truly reprehensible manner in response to bad press. Can they honestly believe that this action somehow HELPS their cause? What a laugh riot!

A firm usually gets a bad reputation for a reason. If any act needs to be cleaned up, it's not the Piano World posters -- it's the dealership in question. They are sorely mistaken if they believe they can salvage what's left of their reputation by telling people, essentially, to shut up or pay up. Not only are they threatening Frank B., they're threatening anyone who posts an opinion here on Piano World.

Cease and desist my @$$! Any dealer that pulls this kind of asinine stunt deserves to be exposed for the sleazebags they are.

In my opinion, of course! :p


Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968341
05/28/04 11:23 PM
05/28/04 11:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member
curry  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
Frank, thank you for responding so quickly to my e-mail. The forums are great source of info for many people, and speaking ones opinion should'nt be a crime.
It's good to see so many members supporting your cause.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968342
05/29/04 06:56 AM
05/29/04 06:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 916
Jacksonville, Florida
J
Jim Volk Offline
500 Post Club Member
Jim Volk  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 916
Jacksonville, Florida
Well, I'm gone for six months, and look at all the excitement I've been missing... whome

Frank, Thomas Paine once remarked that "those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." In that context, a 'litigation fund' is a good idea. With Piano World Forums averaging over 220,000 posts daily and millions of hits a month, it's become an important vessel of free speech to many, and an influential force of some reckoning by manufacturers and retailers alike.

Collecting yearly membership dues from our 6000+ members--even at the measily rate of five bucks apiece--would probably net close to $30K a year for the defense of our cherished freedom against all sorts of spurious litigators. And you wouldn't have to eye every incendiary topic with trepidation, or nervously yank threads at the drop of a lawyer's letter.

Here is something written by Sarah Rohrs, some of which pertains to our discussion:

"In my current job at the Vallejo Times-Herald, numerous animal lovers have approached me with complaints about malfeasance and animal cruelty at the local humane society which I am now checking out through a public records search. These complainers at first wanted me to print all their allegations verbatim, but I can't do that until they are substantiated. To do so would court libel charges against me, the newspaper and the complainers....nothing is more satisfying for a reporter and a reader than to have suspicions confirmed, documented, substantiated and then revealed in public."

Nothing is more satisfying for the average disgruntled customer than to have their righteous crusade bandied about in public, too--especially if they can hide safely behind a screen name, while their accusations need not be "confirmed, documented, substantiated." Frank, obviously you are not a publisher of investigative journalism, nor do you endeavor to represent the content of this forum as fact or "research." You are just providing a public venue in which opinions and experiences can be freely exchanged.

Why should your liablity even come into question, then? If a piano dealer is libelously incriminated here, the burden then rests on him to defend himself (and he is afforded an equal opportunity); but it likewise rests on the poster, to substantiate and corroborate his own allegations. But here is the disparity: a dealer's name can be splashed about with reckless abandon, while the accusing forum member enjoys the sniper's advantage of anonymity, regardless of whether there is the least shred of truth in what he says.

It ought to be a rule that anyone using this forum to bring a hard case against a dealer must also make public his own identity. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

-Jimbo


Jim Volk
PIANOVATION
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968343
05/29/04 07:16 AM
05/29/04 07:16 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Larry  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
I'll just be glad when we aren't having our civil rights violated by a piano dealer and a lawyer. I have news to report, a court ruling of a permanent order against a dealer found guilty of deceptive trade practices. This cannot be any more factual, it was written by the courts! As such, I have a right to report it, Frank has a right to allow it, you have a right to read it, but none of us can excersize our rights because they are being trampled by this lawyer and whoever he is working for.

As such, I think we should sue *them*. Their violation of our rights have now damaged everyone of us by making it impossible for you to get up to date information about a legal ruling concerning a dealership that some of you might need to know about before spending your money. There is also the potential for damages to any consumer who buys a piano from this dealer and falls victim to their deceptive sales tactics because they didn't get the opportunity to know about the court's ruling prior to spending their money due to the forced gagging of this forum.

OK, forum attorneys - do we have a case?


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968344
05/29/04 07:33 AM
05/29/04 07:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 705
Irvington, NY
irving Offline
500 Post Club Member
irving  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 705
Irvington, NY
Quote
Originally posted by Larry:
...none of us can excersize our rights because they are being trampled by this lawyer and whoever he is working for.

As such, I think we should sue *them*. Their violation of our rights have now damaged everyone of us by making it impossible for you to get up to date information about a legal ruling concerning a dealership that some of you might need to know about before spending your money.
Larry,

At the gut level I agree with you. After all, a thread with important information has been pulled and you and others have been intimidated into keeping quiet about things that should not be kept quiet. However, our rights have not been trampled or violated. A threatening email is, after all, just a threatening email. We are all free to ignore it.


Irving
Faust Harrison Pianos
We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968345
05/29/04 07:49 AM
05/29/04 07:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,010
NM, GE & Wash. DC
JPM Offline
1000 Post Club Member
JPM  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,010
NM, GE & Wash. DC
Jimbo,

Welcome back. Good point. If the complainant's allegations are truthful and his case has merit, his willingness to "go public" adds a measure of credibility I think.

My concern with a rule requiring the complainant to do so center on information security and the risk of identity theft, increased spam, etc. (That's why I just use my initials here.)

I wonder if there are legal issues or laws that prohibit an accused dealer from identifying the person making the complaint? I assume the dealer might want to do so if he believes he is in the right.

Looks likes there's still a number of issues to mull over.

JP


"Piano music should only be written for the Bechstein."
-- Claude Debussy
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968346
05/29/04 07:53 AM
05/29/04 07:53 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Larry  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
Actually Irving, we are not. The title of this thread is "be careful what you post". At this point, after 4 pages of posts talking about what we can or cannot say because of this email, I currently have no idea what I can or cannot say. The result is that I am being hindered from giving this information, and the reader is being denied access to the information - all because of this email, and the current muzzling through intimidation we are all having to deal with. I have a right to post factual news, the reader has a need to know it, and a right to know it. But I can't tell you, because due to this violation of our rights, I cannot do so for fear that I will do harm to Frank.


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968347
05/29/04 08:01 AM
05/29/04 08:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 705
Irvington, NY
irving Offline
500 Post Club Member
irving  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 705
Irvington, NY
Quote
Originally posted by Jimbo:

It ought to be a rule that anyone using this forum to bring a hard case against a dealer must also make public his own identity. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

-Jimbo
Welcome back Jimbo,

What about the shill who uses (actually, abuses) this forum to heap praises on a dealer? Should we have a rule that he must also make public his identity?

And what about the piano buyer who doesn't bring a hard case, but nevertheless damages a dealer with a negative opinion? And then there is the piano buyer who damns a dealer with faint praise. Should the public identity rule apply to these people as well?

This forum is not perfect. We all know it. But whenever someone comes up with a possible fix (myself included), we seem to quickly see that the fix (no matter how well intentioned) can bring along problems of its own.

Jimbo, I fully share your sentiment - just read what I've written further back in this thread - but if there were an easy fix for any of the weaknesses of this forum, Frank would have implemented it long ago.


Irving
Faust Harrison Pianos
We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968348
05/29/04 08:06 AM
05/29/04 08:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 871
London
D
Diarmuid2 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Diarmuid2  Offline
500 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 871
London
With you all the way Frank. This dealer has really shot himself in the foot.

Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968349
05/29/04 08:15 AM
05/29/04 08:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 705
Irvington, NY
irving Offline
500 Post Club Member
irving  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 705
Irvington, NY
Quote
Originally posted by Larry:
I am being hindered from giving ... information, and the reader is being denied access to ... information - all because of this email, and the current muzzling through intimidation we are all having to deal with. I have a right to post factual news, the reader has a need to know it, and a right to know it. But I can't tell you, because due to this violation of our rights, I cannot do so for fear that I will do harm to Frank.
Larry,

You may be restraining yourself out of fear that you might do harm to Frank, but not because your rights (or even Frank's rights) have been violated. Believe me; I share your sentiment and your frustration fully. I have a friend/client who had a terrible experience with the as-yet-un-named dealer. She has documentation including a carefully written summary of her experience that she would love to share here. For the moment, I am advising her to sit on it. But not because any rights have been violated. An email that threatens a lawsuit, no matter how disgusting or intimidating it might be, still does not violate our rights.


Irving
Faust Harrison Pianos
We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com
Re: Please Be Careful What You Post! #968350
05/29/04 08:40 AM
05/29/04 08:40 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,342
Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Piano World Offline OP

6000 Post Club Member
Piano World  Offline OP

6000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,342
Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Irving brings up a good point here.

I'm sure part of the reason the dealer figured
he could get the post pulled was because the statements were ambiguous. I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with them.

The posts are not the point here, what angered me was their immediately threatening legal action instead of
either using this public forum to post a rebuttal, or contacting me directly like gentlemen.

Saying something like "Stay away from *****" or
"***** is (bad news, sleazy, dishonest, etc.)" may be your opinion but unfortunately it will only land you (and the forums) in hot water.

FACTS on the other hand (first hand experience, public documents, etc.) should be allowed and should present less of a target for legal action.

And I would think posting facts would be defensible should it become necessary.

Lawyers, your opinions (personal opinions are fine, I realize you aren't providing "counsel").


- Frank B.
Founder / Owner / Host
PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Find Us On:
Facebook.com/PianoWorldDotCom
ProRecord.info
www.youtube.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.linkedin.com/in/pianoworld
Skype: PianoWorldDotCom
My Keyboards:
Estonia L-190 w/ ProRecord, Yamaha P-80, Estey 1895 Pump Organ, Harpsichord (kit), Clavichord (kit), Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880
-------------------------
It's Fun To Play the Piano ... PLEASE Pass It On!
Please invite every piano enthusiast you know to join our piano forums!


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