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Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963076
02/15/08 07:42 PM
02/15/08 07:42 PM
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SAMoore Offline OP
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I'm wondering how long you have students work on a piece. Till it's polished? Till they'e gotten the technical benefits out of it?

I have a great teacher but can't help notice that once, I've learned a piece and have worked out the technical problems, he sometimes doesn't seem overly anxious to keep working on polishing it. Maybe it's good enough? I'm usually working on 3 or 4 pieces as well as etudes, and other assigned exerciese at once so there are alway technical bits to improve. My lessons are only 45 minutes and we always run out of time before moving on to a 'completed' piece.

I guess I'm wondering if I'm missing out on something important by polishing pieces mostly on my own. Maybe I should be asking to START with the whole pieces rather than the bits of newer pieces or the technical exercises. Or maybe it shouldn't be a concern?


It's the journey not the destination..
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Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963077
02/15/08 09:23 PM
02/15/08 09:23 PM
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Not a teacher, but I sure appreciate the question. I've been pondering the exact same thing most of the week. I often feel my teacher moves me on and like you, find I'm polishing on my own. The prior pieces are what I work on when I hit tolerance on my assigned pieces. I'm always so much happier a few weeks past a piece we have left behind. My lesson is tomorrow. I love my assigned piece but know I'm not playing it well. I think I'm going to ask to have this one kept on the schedule.


A Hero is one who hangs on one minute longer. Author: Unknown
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963078
02/15/08 09:59 PM
02/15/08 09:59 PM
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I find, as a teacher, that when I have students participate in national piano guild auditions (or Federation, or the equivalents), it's kind of a forcing mechanism that makes us both work toward the goal of 'perfection'. There is an upside and a downside. The upside is, the goal is definable and there is a deadline. The downside is, sometimes many lessons go by where we keep running through (because of memorization problems, or just stress) the same pieces and put everything else- theory, sightreading, learning something new- on hold for a while.

I found a good compromise is to have interested students perform 3 pieces for guild (depending on the student), which doesn't take up an entire season of lessons to perfect, but allows the student to continue progressing through their method books, sightreading, theory, etc. Those that are very motivated do longer programs (5-10 pieces). They get an independent adjudication and the satisfaction of working a program of pieces to the highest level.

And I admit, it makes me feel good as a teacher when my students go to adjudication and get good report cards. smile

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963079
02/15/08 10:20 PM
02/15/08 10:20 PM
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SAMoore Offline OP
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I should clarify that I'm an adult student with no intentions of doing exams or auditions....but I think my teacher would put me at about grade 6+ level.


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Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963080
02/16/08 01:04 AM
02/16/08 01:04 AM
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Los Angeles, CA
Akira Offline
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Seems like the best thing to do is to simply talk to your teacher about it and share your concerns. It's possible he has a different agenda than the one you're thinking of. Perhaps he feels that working on other things outweigh the incremental learning value of polishing off your current pieces (i.e. there are bigger fish to fry).

No point is second-guessing his motives. I'd be direct about having a clear understanding of his intentions.

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963081
02/16/08 01:48 AM
02/16/08 01:48 AM
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It depends. If the student progresses on it well, I keep going until it's polished and ready for performance. If I can tell that the student isn't willing to work on it, we've hit a wall, whatever, it's time to drop the piece and come back to it later, and do something else that will bring the confidence level back up and the joy back into playing the piano.


Pianist and teacher with a 5'8" Baldwin R and Clavi CLP-230 at home.

New website up: http://www.studioplumpiano.com. Also on Twitter @QQitsMina
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963082
02/16/08 02:09 AM
02/16/08 02:09 AM
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I was taught polishing at least some pieces is extremely important. It needs to be done to a level that you'll never meet in performance, but then, that's what playing for pleasure is really all about.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
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Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963083
02/20/08 12:46 PM
02/20/08 12:46 PM
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Polishing is important, but I think when you're a piano student, you want to have the best repertoire possible so prioritizing comes first. My teacher usually leaves a piece when she thinks it's "good enough." Meaning, that technically and musically it is decent and sounds nearly flawless. Then, if I like the piece that much, I polish it myself.


"Music can name the unnameable and communicate the unknowable." -Leonard Bernstein
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963084
02/20/08 12:48 PM
02/20/08 12:48 PM
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Quote
when you're a piano student, you want to have the best repertoire possible
What does this mean?

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963085
02/26/08 03:52 PM
02/26/08 03:52 PM
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Olympia, Washington, USA
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Let me come at this question from a different angle. How many piano students and former piano students have you met who could sit down at the piano and play something, anything at all, when asked? Likely, not too many.

For that reason alone, I stress repertoire building from day 1 of lessons. The added benefit to this, however, is that it gives me and the student a chance to really master 10 - 15 pieces in the course of a year. A student who can sit down at the keyboard, give a credible performance of six to ten pieces, at any time, has truly something to be proud of. And the parents can see they are getting their money's worth out of the instruction.

These reasons are totally non-musical; applied musicianship, if you will. But then, in the long run, these are the students who will always have the piano with them. Out of this group come musicians.


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
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Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963086
02/26/08 05:50 PM
02/26/08 05:50 PM
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I understand what you are saying, John. The idea of "really mastering" a piece also appeals to me. I take that to mean working through it, building it, learning how to approach it. In the course of doing that there are a host of things to be learned.

I guess that when I take lessons I want to have all the essentials, and if this is one of them, then so be it.

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963087
02/26/08 05:59 PM
02/26/08 05:59 PM
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My teacher tends to let me decide when a piece is finished. I am a perfectionist so I would tend to work on the same peice for months and months and months. I can tell, however, when I have hit a brick wall, and putting the piece aside for a while is a good idea - going back to it with a renewed interest often makes for better progress in the long run.

I think it is possible to have a 'history' with a piece so that the learning process itself complicates the work needed to take a piece from 95% to 100% (oh, all right, 99%). I have a pretty good sense of when that brick wall is there.


"There are so many mornings that have not yet dawned." -- Rg Veda
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963088
02/26/08 06:37 PM
02/26/08 06:37 PM
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SAMoore Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by John v.d.Brook:
Let me come at this question from a different angle. How many piano students and former piano students have you met who could sit down at the piano and play something, anything at all, when asked? Likely, not too many.

For that reason alone, I stress repertoire building from day 1 of lessons. The added benefit to this, however, is that it gives me and the student a chance to really master 10 - 15 pieces in the course of a year. A student who can sit down at the keyboard, give a credible performance of six to ten pieces, at any time, has truly something to be proud of. And the parents can see they are getting their money's worth out of the instruction.

These reasons are totally non-musical; applied musicianship, if you will. But then, in the long run, these are the students who will always have the piano with them. Out of this group come musicians.
John, I'm wondering if these 6-10 pieces are "polished." How long after a piece is learned and/or memorized do you work on it with your students. I don't take part in recitals except for one at piano camp (and of course the ABF online ones) so I guess "polished" isn't a priority for my teacher. I have 5 or 6 pieces (2-4 pages maximum) that I can play reasonably well (mostly memorized) at any one time but polished?? probably not.


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Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963089
02/26/08 09:15 PM
02/26/08 09:15 PM
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Olympia, Washington, USA
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When does your teacher begin teaching "music" or "musicality?" From the start of a piece, or do you first learn the notes, then the rhythm, then the rests, then the phrasing, then the fingering, then the dynamics, etc., etc.?

I ask this question, because to me, a polished piece is one which can be played more or less at correct tempo, has all the basic elements correct, and sounds musically interesting, without the aid of music notation in front of the performer (and yes, that's the goal for each of my students).

Another part of the question addresses the advancement of difficulty from one piece to the next. Can the student basically sight read a new piece, or must he struggle measure by measure to get through it?

So, to answer the questions I have raised, and yours, I want students playing musically from the first or second read through, continually refining their performance as the piece "simmers." If each new piece is too difficult for the student to read at sight (not to tempo, of course), then it's going to be months before they are ready to focus on refining the piece. They'll be bored and tired of constantly working on it, rather than rewarded for having fun with it, which is what the polishing process should be.


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963090
02/26/08 09:52 PM
02/26/08 09:52 PM
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I'm curious what lesson is being taught by spending months on a single piece.

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963091
02/26/08 09:57 PM
02/26/08 09:57 PM
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I constantly try to assign pieces that will be interesting, worthwhile, and even enjoyable for my students. It needs to meet the criteria of skills that the student already has, technique in place, key signature that the student knows and has experience with, rhythms that he can coordinate. Sometimes there will be one or two new concepts that we are working on in the piece - usually a rhythm pattern.

I have taught my students to analyze what is on their music page even at first lessons. You don't make progress in completing pieces or memorizing them if you do not understand what they contain and how to do the movement on the page - mentally and physically.

When independant musicians the pieces start getting artistic and from advancing repertoire - the student is ready to do the majority of the work and bring it to lessons to show progress. Expression, dynamics, composer's style, lots of artistry things are developed and used, and the piece is moving toward completion by polishing and memorizing.

It never gets this far if you do not have skills to match the contents of the piece you are trying to play. Choosing pieces within the realm of possibility is a first step. This is carefully done by a reputable teacher.

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963092
02/27/08 10:15 AM
02/27/08 10:15 AM
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Olympia, Washington, USA
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Akira, I sense from reading some of your posts that you are a bit frustrated with your piano playing at the moment.

Piano playing is both physical and mental. And both improve with "doing."

Just as an analogy, consider bowling or darts. Basically, you repeat the same process over and over, each time refining your skills, albeit ever so slightly. It takes years of doing, and you may never bowl a perfect game. What keeps these two activities from becoming boring? Is it the social aspect or the score keeping or a bit of both? For most instrumentalists, the social aspect is fairly easy to add - just join a band or orchestra or choir, and you've got the social activity. Piano is challenging. It's kind of like playing solitaire. It's what you do when there's nothing else to do.

I am wondering if sonme of your pieces are too challenging for you? If so, this is something to discuss with your teacher. She/he may be trying to push you for a while, or perhaps has another reason for asking you to stretch. But that's another topic.

I have a young lady in the 8th grade who is very social, plays in her band, loves it, but is waining in her interest on the piano. This Fall, I decided to try something very different with her. I assigned a story suite, King Cat's Flats by N. Jane Tan. It's a cute story using 7 pieces, beginning in C major, and progressing through F, Bb, Eb, Ab, etc., with a very modern sound. All of the pieces were well within her technical command, so basically, all we did was learn the notes, memorize, and make as musically interesting as we could. Then, two weeks ago, she dressed up as King Cat, complete with ears and tail, while her best friend dressed up as a page, and read the narration at a community recital. To thunderous applause. She not only did a marvelous job, you could see the look of deep satisfaction written all over her face.

Throughout this process, her pianism improved quite a bit, and while she could have been tackling much more difficult repertoire (she is quite gifted), she enjoyed her piano playing I think for the first time in her life. Was this the correct decision on my part? Will she stick with piano through high school? Only time will tell.


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963093
02/27/08 12:39 PM
02/27/08 12:39 PM
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Well John, if you ever move to eastern Canada and are looking for adult intermediate-type-students....... smile
When does your teacher begin teaching "music" or "musicality?" From the start of a piece, or do you first learn the notes, then the rhythm, then the rests, then the phrasing, then the fingering, then the dynamics, etc., etc.?

I'm pleased with my progress (most of the time) and love my teacher. The first step for me is fingering and notes. Of course we don't ignore rhythm etc. but my teacher waits to "fine tune" these until I'm not struggling with notes and fingering. This usually means that I'll take a new piece away for a week, will learn (depending on the level of the piece)the first page or so. I don't worry about memorizing as this tends to be easier for me and hinders (I think) my sightreading. I will play it at my next lesson when we'll work on the timing, dynamics and phrasing, etc. (and to make sure I'm not playing any incorrect notes shocked (hate it when that happens!) We may or may not move on depending on how the first bit went.

When I wonder about polishing I guess it's when a piece is finished. There's always room for improvement but when should we leave it and move on. Someone said something about when there's diminishing returns.....that makes sense.


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Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963094
02/27/08 12:53 PM
02/27/08 12:53 PM
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Akira, what happens during the months that you are working on a single piece?

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963095
02/27/08 07:13 PM
02/27/08 07:13 PM
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Quote
(John) Akira, I sense from reading some of your posts that you are a bit frustrated with your piano playing at the moment.

I am wondering if some of your pieces are too challenging for you? If so, this is something to discuss with your teacher. She/he may be trying to push you for a while, or perhaps has another reason for asking you to stretch. But that's another topic.
Quote
(keystring) Akira, what happens during the months that you are working on a single piece?
At the six month mark, I've never played any given song for more than a week, so I am unable to answer your question, keystring. The songs I currently play are two or three page pieces, which I like to affectionally call 'baby pieces'. I can usually play them well enough to move on to the next one by the time my weekly lesson rolls around, so I don't think they're too challenging for me, John.

In short, I don't know what happens when one spends months on a single piece. The question was not asked sarcastically, but out of genuine curiosity. Assuming that one has an understanding of the basics and some technique under their belt, I'm interested in learning what incremental skills and strengths are being developed during the process.

One is not likely one would see a note, dynamic mark or timing that they haven't already seen a hundred (or thousands) of times before. Aside from adding a song to one's repretoire, what are the (skill/knowledge development) benefits of spending months on a piece?

There must be something to it, since everyone at a post beginner level seems to be doing it, but I just don't see what it is. frown Can you help me to understand?

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963096
03/10/08 04:16 PM
03/10/08 04:16 PM
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Quote
There must be something to it, since everyone at a post beginner level seems to be doing it, but I just don't see what it is. frown Can you help me to understand?
Akira, I think your questions have been answered on another series of posts, but as I see this specific question hasn't been answered, let me try.

As an adult, you probably do prepare your weekly lesson better than most of my young beginners, but even my best beginners need more than a week on some pieces. It could be a rhythm issue, it could be a musical issue, it could be phrasing, dynamics, or a host of other problems. Plus, most students simply need more repetition to get full control of the problem they're working on.

For my intermediate and advanced students, I expect that they will have the basic issues solved in a month of work. At least, I do not assign literature to them which is too difficult for them to do so in a month. Bear in mind that many of these pieces are 80 or more measures long, so there is a lot more to cover while learning the piece.

Some teachers advocate memorizing as they learn, others want students to achieve basic reading accuracy before starting memorizing. I'm in the latter group. So the second month is spent refining the memorization. The third month is simmering. Musical issues, ie, interpretation, is started just as soon as the notes can be read, but really begins in earnest when the piece is memorized. That's when students can begin focusing totally on what sound they are producing.


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963097
03/10/08 06:16 PM
03/10/08 06:16 PM
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Los Angeles, CA
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Quote
Some teachers advocate memorizing as they learn, others want students to achieve basic reading accuracy before starting memorizing. I'm in the latter group. So the second month is spent refining the memorization. The third month is simmering. Musical issues, ie, interpretation, is started just as soon as the notes can be read, but really begins in earnest when the piece is memorized. That's when students can begin focusing totally on what sound they are producing.
Thanks for the explanation, John. From a 'learning' standpoint, on the surface, it would seem that all one has done was learned to play a piece. However, based on what you described, you appear to be saying that the process of resolving these musical issues is the actual 'lesson' being learned from this three-month process. You take the understanding of how these issues were resolved with you, so that when similar circumstances occur with other pieces, it allows the student to apply what he/she has learned from the lesson. Is that a fair interpretation of what you're saying, John?

As I side note, I'm also curious why teacher's emphasize memorization. Wouldn't that take one further away, rather than bring it closer to the goal of developing sight reading skills (which I presume you advocate). Would you say this is an important skills at all levels? As a beginner, I'm very intentionally trying not to memorize anything, as I wish to develop my sight reading. Any thoughts on this?

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963098
03/10/08 07:29 PM
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I wonder whether it would be be good to expand on Akira's last question. What is the role of sight reading skills in the grand scheme of things?

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963099
03/10/08 08:02 PM
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I wonder too.

The time spent on learning where the notes are and in which tempo they must be played is so negligible compared to the time one spends actually playing from memory that I cannot understand the scope of spending hours and hours in getting better at something you do 1/1000 of the time... then, I'd prefer to dedicate this time to playing the piece better, right?
And the reading skill get better and better anyway, right?

I'm speaking here of course of classical pieces, for jazz etc. the matter will probably be different.


"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

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Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963100
03/10/08 08:21 PM
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I'm not a teacher but I think good sightreading skills, aside from enabling you to play unfamiliar music, will enable you to learn new pieces more easily, relearn old pieces faster and minimize those embarassing moments when you are asked by a teacher to "pick it up from here" and you sit dumbly staring at the piece like you've never seen it before (not that that ever happens to me of course :rolleyes: )


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Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963101
03/10/08 09:59 PM
03/10/08 09:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 89
Huntsville, Alabama, USA
7yritch Offline
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7yritch  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 89
Huntsville, Alabama, USA
I think one needs to balance sight reading and memorization based on ones goals/objectives.

In my case, I primarily memorize the pieces I’m learning because I don’t sight read well, and I don’t want to take the time to develop sight reading yet. However, I find my ability to read the music improves with each new piece. Also, being a self-taught adult beginner, I find it easier to concentrate on the ‘making music’ part of playing after I memorize it. I don’t intend to leave a piece after I’ve memorized it, but return to it frequently to keep it in memory, and hopefully improve it. It’s fun!


Charles R. Walter, Model 1500 (2009 w/Renner action), Satin Ebony
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963102
03/11/08 12:21 AM
03/11/08 12:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
Olympia, Washington, USA
John v.d.Brook Offline
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John v.d.Brook  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
Olympia, Washington, USA
Akira, this is but a slight issue for beginners, but a great issue for advanced players. When you read something for the first time, you get a brief overview of what the author is writing. Depending upon your degree of sophistication, your grasp may be greater or less. As you reread and study what the author has written, your understanding grows. When you truly understand, ie, know, what the author has written, you can repeat nearly verbatim to another person.

So, too, in music. Just because you can read a piece of music doesn't mean you understand it, or can impart meaning when playing it for someone else. That takes insight, which comes from study. A friend of mine has a saying, "Now that you've memorized the notes, we can start learning the piece."

If you accept the premise that true learning/understanding cannot occur until the notes are known, that is, essentially memorized, then you can see why most teachers want students to memorize. I like to start students memorizing right from the beginning, so their minds are trained to grasp the notes quickly. Transfer students are problematic to teachers such as myself, because they are not prepared to put in the work necessary to make memorization a part of their routine.

That said, my personal advice to you would be to select one piece each week to really learn - memorize - you'll be surprised how much more you get from it.

John


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963103
03/11/08 12:40 AM
03/11/08 12:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
keystring Offline
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keystring  Offline
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Posts: 16,196
Canada
Thank you for the explanation, John.
I've been trying to place the reason and also role of sight reading, because teachers also stress that skill. For reasons I thought of the fact that we do get exposed to new music which we then have to develop as you described. But at the first introduction it is good to be able to run through the piece to get a general idea, and how do we do that if we can't sight read?

But then when we are developing a piece we would no longer be sight reading, because we would be working on it - to me that feels different than sight reading - and at that point we are also memorizing. So when we work on pieces, sight reading would no longer play a role and would it in fact be something that we rarely use? Is it there "peripherally" so that we are able to glance back at the music to check if need be?

When should we use sight reading, and when not?

Also would I be correct in understanding that memorization does not only involve the right notes at the right tempo, but all the nuances and technical details that turn a piece into music?

I hope my sight reading question was not too inane. It dawned on me that most of us are trying to get a handle on sight reading, but that I wasn't really sure to what end, or when to use it or not use it or how.

Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963104
03/11/08 04:01 AM
03/11/08 04:01 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
Olympia, Washington, USA
John v.d.Brook Offline
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John v.d.Brook  Offline
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Posts: 7,639
Olympia, Washington, USA
Reading at sight is a wonderful skill to have - it might be labeled "practical musicianship." I'm sitting in church Sunday AM and our organist calls in sick. Guess who's asked to fill in? I need to have the ability to read the hymn tunes, the liturgy and at least skeletonize the choir selection on the fly without panic. Of course, this may never happen to you, but you may be at a party, and someone throws a lead sheet at you. What do you do? Panic?

Of course, when you are sight reading, you're not making great music, but in the examples I gave, great music isn't expected. Just something to support the singing.

As you point out, when you're developing a piece, you're transitioning from reading at sight to reading with recognition, of the form, shapes, phrases, etc., of the piece in question.

Just to give you a sample of differing opinions, I attended a lecture by the great pianist, Luiz de Moura Castro, who basically said that if you're going to perform a piece from memory, then memorization needs to occur early on, long before the piece is polished. Conversely, he contends that if you're going to perform with music, then you should not memorize, but rather work solely from the music.

Back to your question, when should we use sight reading? You probably know that I am a firm believer in not assigning students repertoire which is beyond their ability to sight read, not at tempo, but at least slowly, and as a whole. This differs greatly from many teachers who take the approach somewhat advocated by our friend Gyro. Learn a few notes or measures each day until you've learn the piece. My own opinion is that this method is actually slower in the long run than my approach.

John


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Re: Teachers, when do you leave a piece? #963105
03/11/08 05:42 AM
03/11/08 05:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 802
London
Innominato Offline
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Innominato  Offline
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Posts: 802
London
"minimize those embarassing moments when you are asked by a teacher to "pick it up from here" and you sit dumbly staring at the piece like you've never seen it before (not that that ever happens to me of course [Roll Eyes] )".

Well, if it's a short time, I think she will be so good as to wait..... wink

If one stares at the stave struggling to know which planets they come from, I certainly agree with you...

I would not invest a big amount of time to be able to *instantly* read and play the music, though, as I fail to see the return on my time investment... wink (that's by the way what I mean for "sight reading": you read in the staves as naturally as you read a book...)


"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin
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