Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum How do you handle students who have zero talent and ability?

Yeah, thaks for pointing out the mistake
I correct it

Allow me to be a bit off-topic.
I have been singing since I was 9 in a choir and found the same problem of suddenly having an awkward voice. But the truth is that my problem and my hatred for my voice coincided with my coordinative problems at the piano. In other words while I too believed it was just a matter of age and that my nice voice had become cold, harsh and dark I realized later that I was causing my own awkawardiness and it was affecting everything from my playing to my walking to my speaking and singing. I have studied Speech Level Singing and the Linklater method and found out that my voice didn't have to be liveless and so low. Yes growth made my chords thicker but it's not the tool that makes the difference but how you use it. I believe nowadays that the thickening of my vocal chords just triggered a dormant vocal miscordination that caused a stronger change than what really happened. My voice retains nowadays certain innate characteristics of my childhood voice which miscordination was destroying, in spite of the pitch. It has a certain pitch but it's not bear-like anymore.

I guess we're going to be punished for all the OTs keystring, but I love off-toping with you so at least when we're going to serve detention we won't get bored

Oh, I'm a free spirit, so I don't serve detentions. If I did get one, I'd let my imagination fly.

I think what we really need is a new topic called (what?) I was going to write that it's all in the body regardless of the instrument, but it goes further than body: there's the way that body and mind are a unit and whatever it is that goes into producing music. You have the same postural principles in singing as elsewhere. Alexander, for an example, was an actor who lost his voice, and what he came up with has been used by every musical discipline. Though I have a weird hunch that we've gone the other way - first of all not catching that he talks about the natural use of the body before it deviates, rather than some new unnatural use that swings the other way. He was taught to be "grounded", and ground himself into the ground so thoroughly that he became heavy. But nowaday we try to stand so tall, we're so much up in the head and shoulders, that I think some of us have to get grounded again.

May I move this thread sideways a bit? As a 50 year old adult re-learner I have struggled with this thought - does my teacher just tolerate me? And here is the concern I have, validated in the quote. (Note* my teacher treats me wonderfully. I really like her.) It leads into my question -
teachers do you teach differently to adult beginners/re-learners? Maybe pass them through pieces more quickly for reasons such as a fear of a hit to their self esteem. Personally, I would love to know how you feel about us as students?? I am aware my question is driven by my own concern that I stumble over the same kinds of things week after week. I would hate to think my teacher is just patiently waiting for me to give up.

duplicate post.

This is not how I have read the responses. There is a general pattern: the students who you see as having difficulties, some of whom (esp. the adults) have quit, are all having them in the area of physical coordination. All of the suggestions that have come in have moved from the musical to a very physical mechanical approach, and some of those suggestions went into quite some detail. They did not seem like a condemnation of your teaching, but alternatives in order to address a specific area that has left you stymied. Instead of saying "This person has no ability/is uncoordinate/can't play a simple song" - which cannot be solved - they were redefining the problem as "This person cannot put three fingers down in sequence - how will we get him to do that?" That becomes solvable. What nobody knows is if you have tried that already.

Everybody has areas of strength, areas of less strength, and sometimes simply a different angle is needed. When I taught I had a 7 year old student who could not spell. A specialist came in and discovered he had difficulty sequencing. I had already chosen a phonetic speller for him. However, this specialist came upon an idea I never would have thought of: Get muscle memory going, and slow him down so that his mind can catch up, using an old fashioned typewriter. When spelling time came around, this little boy went to his typewriter, and laboriously hammered away at his letters. He started to progress, which made his self-esteem go up. I considered myself a good teacher, did not see the typewriter idea as interference - not in a million years would I have considered a manual typewriter as a solution to a spelling problem. "This boy cannot spell the most obvious words, like cat, hat, rat and fat." was my initial baffled observation. I see the suggestions here in the same light.

I, too, noted the comment about adult students, but it was because the boy in question was 12 and so no longer a small child, and because you must have had a reason for mentioning it. I'm an adult learner, also in my 50's. My teacher expects his adults to progress faster, and he expects more of them. I did my exam at 6 months, and the little boy ahead of me was at the same level after 2 years. I was truly astonished when I first came on the Net and discovered all the things we were not supposed to be able to do. That said, I don't think that we don't learn as fast - I think that a) we already have established habits which interfere, while small children are in the process of forming their physical habits b) we can bring intellectual analysis into what is being taught and again interfere. I think there is a whole area to explore. It might be pertinent if such a thing is also true for an older child who needs to train his fingers, and if this is also true for an adult in the same manner. You have grouped the two together in your post: the 12 year old and the adults - maybe there's a link that can be used.

No, it is much more than that! It is a lack of musical ability in general...here is the quote from my last post:

I am talking about a very tiny percentage of students who simply cannot grasp the fundamentals of playing the piano, cannot control their hands so they can reliably press one key at a time, have no sense of rhythm, and no ear for music.

The physical co-ordination is typically a component of the problem, NOT the only part.

Furthermore, many of the responses suggested doing things such as those that you advocate that I already do, or do in a very similar manner when my students have problems.

I could write a book about my attempts to teach that man...I did not write that book in my posts, so forgive me for being incomplete.

My point is that some people simply do not have the talent/ability to learn how to play, and a different method will not grant them talent, any more than a new "method" will change my body and reflexes into a athlete. I have seen a few as students.

However, your point is well taken...I do not give up on people, and do try many approaches. For example, I have worked with students who learn quickly by ear, but have difficultly with reading music. So we study things by ear, and then I show them a simple version of the notation, often writing it out, and they learn that way.

Regarding wherether or not I am the right teacher, here is one response:

Are you only in the business to teach the talented? Then let the parents know right away that this is not a good match and recommend another teacher for him.

I do not think that is a helpful answer.

edit

The people making the suggestions could not know what you have already tried. We saw that you percieved him as not having ability and talent, that he could not coordinate his finger, that he was a beginner, and that you had tried to get him to play a song. So the suggestions came in about addressing just those three fingers because one could not know what you tried. Saying what you have tried may help those who are trying to help get more on track in doing so.

I wish you the best of luck with this student regardless of the outcome.

Thank you for your help. Once again, I did say his problem was much more than finger coordination! Please read the whole post.

I've enjoyed reading your posts, they are very intelligent. I do find the your division of students into musicians or athletes contrary to my experience though. My best students have always come with excellent coordination and consequently have also been very good at sports.

Teaching should never (and I know it often does) get to the level of frustration for either participant. That just leads to illness. My advice to all those who are edging towards this feeling is to back away; try and become more objective.

Hello your Royal Magnitude King of Greece,

I thoroughly endorse your view klutz that the best musical students are often the most co-ordinated of athletes.

My happy schooldays are remembered chiefly for the competitive fun on the sports fields ... whether smacking a six or making a dummy to
score a try.

Piano teaching suffers from the sombre isolation of one-on-one teaching ... which removes the factor of competitive alertness ... the present case of the talent-less hopeful deserves our every concern ... the unfortunate sits like Tweedledum in the corner ... if only he could have the company of Tweedledee ... and perhaps engage in a Battle.

Would increased user-friendly company help in this vexing case?

Having never had a similar Tweedledum to teach ... the admirable Rocket88 seems to be piloting this one solo ... happy landings ... we salute you.

Funny you should say that Sir btb. I fortunately teach most of my pupils in a school - often in groups. They get the same benefit of 'competitive alertness'. Would you believe the sight of a group of boys stood around a piano at lunchtime vying for who could play Clemnti better? Or as they pronounce it 'Clement-ee'.

You are on a good wicket Your Highness
(do the Greeks play cricket?)

No wonder you get results in your competitive setting ... Ye Olde English Public School format has a lot going for it ... my best results were always in age groups of 5 ... we made a fuss of the top dog while tail-end-Charlie at 5 had to
endure the chagrin of being bottom in the weekly performance.

This was my most revealing and humbling experience in the teaching game ... while you couldn’t further coach the bloated prize-winning no. 1 ( how the mind closes down to advice in victory),it was the abject loser, stinging with resentment who opened a new world for me in the psychological approach to teaching.

It’s an old adage that we learn most by our defeats.

I’m glad to say that I was smart enough to give prime attention to the fallen ... after the others had gone home and I had managed to get the
broken spirit to admit the cause of the demise (often requiring the most sensitive skills of persuasion) ... and asked Mum to stay a little longer while we spent 30 minutes individually boosting skills ... with ever encouraging words to inspire regaining top spot in the next competition.

I’m a firm believer that the school is as strong as the weakest link ... by boosting from the bottom ... we promote the top.

With loyal allegiance ... see you at tonight’s Parthenon shin-dig.

You mean Ye Newe Inner-Citye Comprehensive

hmm interesting thread.

i'm not sure whether the boy really do not have the talent. Because i remember clearly when i just started piano at 6 in a group lesson, i only learn how to play with one finger. I learn songs such as twinkle twinkle little star for like 6 months maybe.

When i move on to 5 fingers, i struggled a lot. My other fingers always have the tendency to back off the piano.

Then when the teacher introduced playing together with the left hand, i kinda stunned. I remember clearly asking my mum that we can actually play piano with both hands? I had lots of difficulty in playing with both hands and my teacher kept scolding me on my hand position.

But she have this passion for teaching and always made the lesson interesting like with mini drums for us to beat according to the song she played. And singing of course.

So in my opinion it is about the student passion for learning piano and the teacher willingness to teach and cultivate this interest in him.

I have this instinctive feel (and experience) that the desire to play the piano comes with the coordination to being able to play it, even latent.

In my experience the more people have voice problems and can't sing in tune or use their voice properly the less their desire to sing. The less athletically coordinative a person is the less the desire to be involved in athletic activities.

So even for those with the greatest problem there's a way as long as they have a genuine desire to play. Lack of musicality prevents one from being remotely interested in music making and would make one focus on activities involving his/her predispositions.

No wonder Jenova from Singapore struggled with reading the roles of two keyboard hands.

The twin-stave format which the keyboard has inherited from those ancient Middle Age choralist days is, in today’s Computer Age a makeshift botch, which should have been sorted out years ago with the acceptance of the basic 12 note palette to enhance the limited alphabetic 7 white notes ... ... what makes matters worse is that the two staves (carrying the same musical concept) ... is chopped in half and illogically spaced a mile apart (quite daft) ... and have to be read with a switchback brain from notes with their octaves jumped from on lines to that in-between lines.

No other field of endeavour for quick comprehension would ever submit itself to such a loopy format of a switching yardstick.

Sir, I was not dividing students into musicians or athletics.

I was using that as an example of how someone (myself) did not improve athletically despite gym class twice a week for years in school. My athletic ability never changed, and I remain to this day a completely un-athletic person.

My point was that I am at the bottom of the bell curve athletically, despite gym classes and my desire to keep up and be a part of my peers.

And, I believe that some folks have as little piano and musical talent as I do in athletics. Therefore, lessons will most likely never change the lack of ability, unless, as some posters said, something may unlock a door in their mind that is presently closed due to something such as a learning difficulty.