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#953097 - 05/22/07 05:34 AM Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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btb Offline
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My reference describes an accidental as

“A sign indicating a
DEPARTURE FROM THE KEY SIGNATURE,
by the momentary raising or lowering of a note by means of a sharp, flat, double-sharp, double-flat or natural.”

Can anybody advise of a collective noun for “sharps and flats?”

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#953098 - 05/22/07 06:20 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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J. Mark Offline
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uh... accidentals?

#953099 - 05/22/07 07:26 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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btb Offline
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Thanks Mark ... but I got told off well and truly by the professorial brigade that accidentals were as defined as notes which are a DEPARTURE from the key signature ... that's why I'm looking for a more accurate (but less wordy description) for sharps and flats.

#953100 - 05/22/07 07:53 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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There isn't a standard word for "sharps and flats."

I think your "professoorial brigade" is full of crap. The term "accidentals" often refers to the symbols for sharps, flats, naturals, double sharps, and double flats.

Why's it so important? It's just a word.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#953101 - 05/22/07 08:17 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Ragnhild Offline
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Language is fun, sometimes....

I have been a little confused by the term "accidental" in English , because of the way it's defined (as pointed out by btb).

Norwegian seem for once to be more precise in this matter :
Sharps and flats are called "fortegn" (something like pre-sign).
Sharps and flats in key signature are called "faste fortegn" (fixed presigns), and other sharps and flats are called "løse fortegn" (loose presigns).

BTW "accidentals" sounds a little dangerous to me....
smile smile

Ragnhild


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#953102 - 05/22/07 09:07 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Quote
Originally posted by btb:
Thanks Mark ... but I got told off well and truly by the professorial brigade that accidentals were as defined as notes which are a DEPARTURE from the key signature ... that's why I'm looking for a more accurate (but less wordy description) for sharps and flats.
The collective noun for sharps/flats that are in the key signature is called the "key signature."

#953103 - 05/22/07 11:52 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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J. Mark Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by btb:
Thanks Mark ... but I got told off well and truly by the professorial brigade that accidentals were as defined as notes which are a DEPARTURE from the key signature ... that's why I'm looking for a more accurate (but less wordy description) for sharps and flats.
Hm. Yes, I see. So...I guess...in the key of G, F# is not an accidental. Yet, it is still called F sharp. So it's a sharp, but not an accidental.

I guess the only thing that makes sense, then, is to just call them "the black keys." Of course, that's a piano reference, not a music notation reference... Hm. Problem.

How about..."things that would be accidentals in the key of C major." There. That's efficient use of language.

#953104 - 05/22/07 12:19 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Piano*Dad Offline
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The problem with that idea is that C-flat (which is B, of course) could be an accidental in a key that has B-flat in it. Accidentals aren't just the black keys.

#953105 - 05/22/07 12:26 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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8ude Offline
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I'm with Kreisler on this - I think they're splitting hairs a little too fine for their own good. While it is hardly the final source for music terminology, dictionary.com defines accidental as:

a sign placed before a note indicating a chromatic alteration of its pitch.

Sounds good enough for me...


What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.
#953106 - 05/22/07 01:47 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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John v.d.Brook Offline
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Well, that's what I teach my students. We don't call an F# in the key of G an accidental, because it isn't. If you were working with a relative solfege system, it would "ti," as in do, re, mi etc. Our notation system only allows for the placement of tones in the key of C, which is perhaps why they are white (formerly black or actually "natural" on older keyboard instruments). We call them naturals, by the way.


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
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#953107 - 05/22/07 04:44 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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We might also make note of the fact that musical terminology is sadly unstandardized. Nobody agrees on the meaning of "hemiola," either. (That debate tends to come up at least once a year around here.)

There is disagreement on some formal terminology as well. Some people call it a "second theme," others call it a "second tonal area." Some call "fugue" a form, others think of it simply as a compositional procedure.

There are rarely truths in music theory, simply because theory is descriptive and reflects common practice, not all practice. For every theoretical concept and/or definition, you can always find a counter example somewhere.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#953108 - 05/22/07 05:01 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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P*D:
C-flat (which is B, of course)

No it isn't; e.g. C-flat is the subdominant of the G flat major, whereas B is the mediant of G major wink .

-Michael B.


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
#953109 - 05/22/07 05:17 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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the squiggly things


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#953110 - 05/22/07 05:20 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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And, of course, Cb and B are actually two different tones (well, if we're going to get really technical, 12 different sets of tones, depending upon the key we're playing in) - on all instruments except keyboard instruments, which are purposely tuned out of tune for player's convenience. laugh


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
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#953111 - 05/22/07 06:30 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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How about: chromatic alteration signs smile


Du holde Kunst...
#953112 - 05/22/07 06:49 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Wow, my innocuous little C flat comment arouses such passion. I love it. laugh

#953113 - 05/22/07 09:32 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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a gaggle of geese
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a shift of sharps and flats??


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#953114 - 05/22/07 10:39 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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thumb


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#953115 - 05/22/07 11:29 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Mo.
lol! This is quite the conversation to read. Has this been asked in the Pianist Corner too? I'm going to check.

#953116 - 05/22/07 11:31 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Mo.
p.s. There are a lot of things in music that are just a given - sort of like Algebra - you know it but you can't explain it.

#953117 - 05/23/07 03:11 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Thanks Yak for your collective noun “shift” ... IMHO right on the money ... the process of moving up or down off the original stave note is a “SHIFT”. .. no more, nor less ... but it will be another thing to persuade the boffins that a

“shift-rich” key signature

(meaning those signatures with 7 sharps or flats)
is acceptable jargon when wanting to say

“key signatures rich in the number of sharps and flats”.

#953118 - 05/23/07 03:40 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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David:
Wow, my innocuous little C flat comment arouses such passion. I love it. laugh

I obviously couldn't let such an outrageous statement pass unnoticed!

Yours enharmonically,

-Michael B. wink


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
#953119 - 05/23/07 07:45 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Wish I could speak Norwegian to be able to pick up on Ragnhild’s positive lead regarding a collective noun for sharps and flats ... her suggestion of “fortegn” (something like a pre-sign) ... and interesting adding how out of place the word “accidentals” sounds.

Wikipedia tells us all about “fortegn” ... but unless you’re fond of skiing and have, during snowy visits picked up the lingo ... the Wiki blurb in Norwegian is about as comprehensible as double-Dutch (whatever that means).

#953120 - 05/23/07 08:01 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Quote
Originally posted by sid:
the squiggly things
this is my favorite answer in the whole thread. laugh

I do agree with Ragnhild that the Norwegians appear to have dealt with the issue in a most logical manner.


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#953121 - 05/23/07 11:37 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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In the UK the collective term is 'Flarps'.


Pianist and piano teacher.
#953122 - 05/23/07 12:24 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Wouldn't it just be an accidental that would therefore change a major scale to a minor.

I'll still vote for "Flarps".
(That is the best one yet!)

Diane
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#953123 - 05/23/07 03:15 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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John v.d.Brook Offline
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Flarps? What about naturals? Flarpurals?


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
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#953124 - 05/23/07 09:04 PM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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Flarps? [Linked Image]

Well, that beats the cr@p out of "shats." laugh :p

#953125 - 05/24/07 02:15 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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What a merry chase!

“Flarps” sounds like the undignified splash of an obese poltroon not wanting to get a hair-do wet.

But who was the clown who came up with the name accidentals? We’re all so used to the misnomer that we don’t blanch at the blatant inaccuracy of the term.

An “accident” by definition is an “unexpected event/mishap” ... how then can the 5 notes outside any scale bear the yoke of being dismissed as accidentals ... especially when the so-called accidental Eb (in C major) is the very spice which epitomises the C minor scale.

#953126 - 05/24/07 07:47 AM Re: Collective noun for sharps and flats?  
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How about a collective noun for bankers?

Would that be a wunch? LOL

Regards
Keith


Yamaha CLP 535
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