Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Can (or should) composition be taught to an 8-yr old?

Is it common for piano teachers to teach elements of composing? And if so, at what student age? And how is it taught? Do some teachers specialize in this?

I've been thinking about how best to support my daughter's interest. She's been taking piano lessons for 3 years. She rarely practices her assingnments for longer than 10 or 15 min per day. (She is quick to memorize and has a great ear, so the lack of practicing has not hurt her as much as it might have otherwise.)

But she plays her own compositions, improvises, and plays pop songs by ear, often for an hour or more per day. She is able to play any melody by ear without hunting around for the right notes, and she usually makes up the harmony as well. For what it's worth, she also has perfect (absolute) pitch.

She often comes home from school with a piece of scrap paper on which she wrote the notes of a piece that she made up (without a piano to try it out on), with both melody and harmony already worked out. But "worked out" is not the way to say it. I want to say "visualized", but that's not right either. The thing is, she heard the whole thing in her mind, sketched it on paper, and then came home and played it. Of course, she also often comes up with fragments, that she plays around with, and occasionally adds to.

So I've seen the blossoming of her creativity, and I want to support it. That may mean doing nothing. Or it may mean finding an additional teacher to supplement what her regular teacher does. Or? Is there anything else I can do?

Thanks,
Frances

I see no problem in teaching composition to young kids, expecially if they have interest in composition and already shown a predispotion to the creation of their own music. I also don't think, from experience, that composition is so much more complex that standard piano concepts kids are already asked to learn and memorize.

There are already young kids there composing.
Ariel Lanyi and Kit Armstrong come to mind as, younger than 10 year old composers with a thorough knowledge in harmony and orchestration.

I don't see why not, if the child is ready.

I do think a child who is ready so early may be a bit unusual. I would like to hear from teachers who have personal experience doing this.

My concern would be much the same as with older people. I would want them to have enough skills developed, enough "fluency", to be able to turn to themselves for ideas. I began to compose when I was older, and I wish now that someone had started me earlier. I think I was ready.

have you considered taking her to a conservatory? you will find many kids like her at one.

I teach all my students to compose. For those who aren't yet good at reading music, I work more on improvisation with them. Currently, I have my beginner students composing a canon. The older/more experienced students are working on a theme and variations. If her piano teacher is not qualified to help her with this, then find a teacher who can (as a supplement to her regular piano lessons). Chances are, the teacher just doesn't have an idea that she is doing this.

The question would be "How would you teach composition to an 8 year old?" without hurting a childs creativity.

It sounds to me that it certainly would not hurt to find the right teacher that would help nurture your daughter's gift.

I do have some mixed feelings when it comes to "learning" composition. If she is already composing, well then, what more do you want? Especially at this age? Are her compositions not written down correctly and that is what you would like her to learn to do? Just curious.

If this is the case, can't her piano teacher help her with this? Have you asked her piano teacher what he/she thinks?

Absolutely! Although I primarily teach adults how to improvise and compose, I see no reason why children can't pen their own melodies.

The trick is to work with them and their own natural talents. I actually have a few videos on YouTube that shows how to compose an 8-bar phrase and how to compose a theme & variations. You can find these at http://www.youtube.com/user/quiescencemusic

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Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

Kimold,

You started three threads here this year to discuss your son and your frustrations in dealing with his musical talent—including choosing a suitable teacher. Nowhere did you mention that he was already studying at a conservatory.

A lot of people spent time and energy giving you counseling and advice. Some of us were skeptical at the way you dodged specific questions that were put to you and wondered whether your concerns were genuine or if you were just seeking attention as the boastful parent of a gifted "musical prodigy" child with an "artistic temperament" whose lack of discipline was "driving you crazy." Then you disappeared.

And you're back again with a different story with respect to one highly significant detail. What are people supposed to think now?

Steven

Bring on the young composers of tomorrow, I say!

Frances -

Not all piano teachers can teach composition. If your current teacher has done all he or she can, it'll be worth it to find a dedicated composition teacher. Expect a teacher to impart basics of notation, theory, forms (such as ABA form, rondo form, rudiments of sonata form), types of compositions (various dances, etc.), and shorthand. If your current teacher cannot do this, definitely find a dedicated composition teacher.

I've never taken composition because I'm terrible at it, but if I were hunting for a composition teacher, I'd look for someone who could turn a critical eye to the work, teach harmony from the ground up, teach figured bass and chord analysis, style, history, and advanced forms.

Best of luck!

Gary -

I currently have a 10 year old student who likes to make up songs. I've taken what she's imagined, and helped her shape it into three pieces she can be proud of. I don't see why young kids should stay away from composition. It's only a short way from taking dictation to improve note recognition, to dictating melodies, to dictating melodies that the student makes up himself. If only my teachers had time to devote to composition, when I was young!

My only problem is that I had a student a year ago who wanted to write his own music, but I got an avalanche of questions about how to do it that ended up turning our classes into ONLY composing.

I actually enjoyed it, but he was missing a lot of structure that I wanted him to have, and then he stopped because of "no time". He was another person who had to put so much of his energy into keep a high grade point average that he had no time left, which again is why I dislike our American school system so much.

That's why if you can afford it get a dedicated composition teacher.

Minaku,

I assume the eight year old would have to have an analytic and mature mind to be able to enjoy this type of instruction and she indeed may have, I think Francis (the mom) would be able to say.

But for most 8 year olds that are composing on their own, they may find this type of instruction a turn-off to composing, although it could be applied, but it would have to be done in a creative way, to not stifle their natural abilities.

I'm saying this as a "sounding board" for myself on how I would like to teach composition.

In the conservatory, composing students of every age, have from time to time lamented the fact that their teachers, instead of teaching them the tools to compose what they already have in their mind, attempt to teach them "what" to compose, with not so subtle preferences toward certain sounds and styles.

But there's no reason for composition to hurt or limit someone creativity. You should not be learning "what" to compose, but how to better "express" what have you already "composed" in your mind.

In other words it's like providing a writing program and a printer to a kid who loves to write stories. You're leaving his personal creativity untouched, just giving him the tools to concretize it.

Funny, I feel like the older version of your son (only I am girl ) ... Lately I have found myself improving a lot with chord progressions and melodies in the right, I would play around with certain themes and make variations then add ornaments.

I love doing it but I am trying to hold off it as I find myself spending 1.5 hours at the piano just improvising ... that will be all my practice time gone .

Sometimes I will scribble down my themes and variations ...

I am trying to concerntrate but I always have the tendency to improvise it's so distracting!

Gary,
That's when you ask for more time in lessons so you can help the student with both piano and composition. Then you can dedicate the last 15 minutes or half hour to just composition.

pianobuff,
You are correct in that the teacher will have to know how to teach composition in a way that will continue to make it fun while encouraging the student to progress. Sometimes taking lessons from a composition teacher can be too serious, but really it all depends on the teacher.

Rebekah,
Your mind is screaming for this freedom probably because of the stress you've been under for the upcoming (?) exam. Try recording yourself as you improvise, and then you can come back later when you have more time to write down the good ideas.

I would not do anything. It sounds like
she's doing just fine on her own right now.
In any case, it would be difficult to
find a composition teacher. You might
have to go to a university instructor,
and such a teacher would in all likelihood
teach her in the most unimaginative,
academic fashion, which would take all
the fun out of composing and quickly
destroy her talent. She doesn't practice
her piano lesson assignments much now--
doesn't need to with the kind of musical gifts
she has. Do you suppose she'll spend hrs.
doing boring composition drills assigned
by a composition instructor?

Gyro, as I said yonger kids who compose or study composition exist. Some of them have even their music for sale. So this means that piano teachers who also teach composition do exist. In fact a previous teacher of mine had a degree in both piano and composition and had a creative and fun approach to both, not just with younger children, but everyone. His theory was that you can't learn art without having fun in the process. Yes, working hard but with fun and joy.

Also, there is the danger with a teacher
who takes on a largely self-taught prodigy,
that the very first thing he'll do is
to put the student in his place--give him
an inferiority complex right off the bat so
he'll know who's boss--by saying that
his stuff is childish, and unschooled,
and not up to accepted academic standards.
This can create an inferiority complex
in the student from which he never
recovers. This is how so many prodigies
are destroyed by teachers.

Back in the dark ages when I was nine, my first teacher used the Pace method. Composition was an essential element. Composition seems like a sensible extension of theory. Why not?