Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Can (or should) composition be taught to an 8-yr old?

Just 15 minutes? I wouldn't know where to START with so little time.

This would be very improper.
Composition means the set of tool required to compose: harmony, orchestration, counterpoint.
It doesn't mean teaching what to compose.
Theorically a composition teacher shouldn't even know what the composer student has been composing on his own, and is not entitled to judge it.
Accademical composition classes where you are taught very little harmony and are stiilistically forced into avant-garde (a very unproper teacher behavior) are not the standards. There are many ways to learn compositions. In most composition courses the irrelevant concept of "accademic standards" is not even mentioned. You're simply taught your harmony and your counterpoint. In a musicians associations I know, there are composition course for pop music and cinema soundtracks and many young people who attend them.
There are pop musicians out there who have composition knowledge, which they use in the creation of their own music, but almost none of them had to pass through the limited path of classical/avant-garde accademic composition. I know even an accademy that offers accelerated courses. Last time I checked the composers taught for 5 years were not any worse than those taught for 10 years. Besides the former, were less inhibited in their composition choices and future career as music-makers.

Hi Morodiene,

I like your method. I ALWAYS put improvisation ahead of composition. Why? Because unless a student can freely move ahead and express themselves spontaneously, how can they move forward past even the first 8-bars of a composition?

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Frances M - You asked:

Then you asked:

I don't know if you've found the answer you've been looking for, but by age 8, Mozart was already composing serious music at an upper intermediate, lower advanced technical level. And had composed a good quantity to boot, which we're still playing!!!

So my answer would be, if you're willing to devote the resources to your child, increase the number of lessons per week, and definitely, as others have already suggested, find a teacher who can teach compositional theory and help your child funnel the creative juices to something productive.

I am the master of efficiency! I get composition in along with the regular piano lesson usually in 30 minutes. Of course, I can't spend too much time on it, and the rest depends on the student to take the time during the week. But that's the case for anything, isn't it?

I've always tried to teach my students composition, but lacking the skills myself, I didn't know how to proceed. I would just give them a piece of manuscript paper and let them write notes. As they got older, we would add bar lines, chords, etc. Then, We would start with a chord progression and make a melody around that. Usually, I would not get very far because I didn't feel comfortable writing myself, but I knew it was important for kids to develop so they wouldn't end up like me--Totally tied to notes. Thanks for this thread, I think it might help me in the future. I've only got a couple students at the moment.

I agree with you Gary. To seriously teach composition and to make some headway it does take longer than 15-30 minutes. But you can touch on it.

I try and spend 15 minutes either using a line of rhythm where my students compose a 4 measure phrase using that specific rhythm that they pick, I also give them guidelnes such as what key, what notes they can start on, what note they should end on. Now this is for students that do not compose on their own, or they do compose on their own but not very well. I also have my students improvise using chord progressions that they are learning. Again, we only touch on this since time is limited.

It takes more time when you have a gifted student that does compose on their own and you are trying to teach form, imo; or a student that is interested in composition and you want to take them further than what you touched on in that 15-minutes of lesson time. Those students really need an hour a week lesson in composition.

I would rather spend some time, whatever time I could (and whatever time the parent could afford) on teaching composition within the piano lesson than not touch on it at all. A student, especially a girl (edited to add: because we are so often playing music written by men), whose teacher never shows any interest in her ability to compose will assume that sort of thing isn't welcome, that she's not good enough, etc. This is my personal experience. I spend what time I can during the lesson on composition with every student, and we have longer periods during the monthly group lesson where I can assist students as they progress.

I am not talking about "seriously" teaching composition. If it were something that the student was really serious about, then we'd sign them up for composition lessons. However, I think all students can benefit from learning some compositional principles, and so I address it with all my students with what time is available.

Many of us play composed music, and yet who does the composing? We leave the art to a select few, rather than encourage it in all students. I'm sure many teachers would be surprised to find out which students of theirs are out there working with bands or doing open mics of their original works. Why wouldn't their piano teachers know about this? Because the student didn't feel it was legitimate enough for their teacher. It is sad, but true.

I'm not a teacher, but I personally love composing and think that everyone ought to have some exposure to it.

The only thing I'd keep in mind about composition for an 8 year old is that formal composition plus piano might be a little much to have on one's plate at that time of life. IMHO, it would be better to reinforce a child's theory by rigorous work with scales, arpeggios, and basic harmony at the piano. That's what gave me the basic foundation I needed to begin composing. Now I study works of the masters to analyze form and harmony. That has helped me to move my composing to a higher plane.

Frances, I read your comment and I could not help but to tell that you should definitely encourage her interest, or at least I see it as her natural interest in composition. I was not blessed with perfect pitch from birth, but I also had an increasing passion to compose the more I learned piano. It turns out I dropped piano lessions just to receive composition lessons. If your daughter does drop piano lessons, there is no indication that her piano playing abilities will actually perish. Sometimes, as I consider in my case, those abilities do not just disappear, they actually grow pretty fast from there because the love for composition will make one write music that one him/herself will practice. Composers are well aware of what they write and their musical abilities are usually up to par with their compositional talents. I strongly recommend that your child be given composition lessons as a whole separate class, given that she wants to continue piano as well. I remember taking 1 hour for piano, and then 1 hour of composition, but the piano didnt interest me much so I dropped it. Your child could have that same feeling where she's thinking why play others' music when I can compose and play my own. I personally had this passion for it that it was an obssession and I ended up using all available scores in sight as basic guides for what I wanted to do. I am really happy for you and I hope your child progresses beyond your dreams.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this, and your encouragement. It's been very helpful to read through your posts. I'm going to talk with our teacher about adding a composition lesson, with a different teacher who specializes in it. Our teacher knows about my daughter's interest in composing, and has encouraged it, but even with an hour lesson each week, there isn't enough time to focus on it. This is something my daughter & I need to explore, because it's her passion. I really appreciate all your comments; you've made me aware of many things to consider as we look for a teacher.

I hope this thread has been helpful to others as well. I searched the archives for a similar thread, and I looked other places online, and didn't find much.

best regards,
Frances

I currently teach an 8 year old female student 1 hour of piano, and 30 min. of composition each week...she would be my youngest 'composer' student, though there are others a little older. I'm a composer, as well as a performer, so teaching composition is not an issue for me, and I absolutely love being witness to, and guiding compositional talent in the young...I encourage any student towards composition, if they so much as voice a slight interest in it :)I believe that kind of level of creativity, as a desire to learn composition at such a young age, must be intrinsic, and I'm an advocator of any gift which may suggest one is born with an aptitude for it.

so Frances, best of luck with your daughter!

Ah, if only I had an hour and a half to teach some talented kids instead of just 1/2 hour. (sigh)

do you ever go overtime Gary?

Yes, but normally only when someone comes early, when a student is absent, or after a lesson is supposed to end, when the next does not come.

I was much more free with extra time when I was younger. I'm not just in it for the money, but my age gives me less energy. I can't keep going as long as I used to.

Believe me Gary, it's a luxury I'm only able to reserve for a few...and that means, it's a luxury for me too

It's not about reserving time.

It's about the cost.

People don't even take an hour of time here. I would opt for two 1/3 lessons a week for any talented student, even a serious student.

It just doesn't happen where I live. It used to…

Look, as I said, it's a luxury for me too...to be honest, in my experience, it's only the asian students who have parents willing to devote such financial and practical dedication to their child's musical studies, with extended lesson times. Usually, these students aren't overloaded with extra-curricular events, like swimming, tennis, theatre, other sports...it's music and maybe an odd school tutor once a week, so these parents and students are very devoted to music studies. Just making an observation from my experience.

Another thing is that under no circumstances
should you switch from her present teacher.
In cases like this, the teacher is often
some seemingly unimpressive neighborhood
teacher, and so there is the tendency to
want to switch to a "better" teacher.
However, the current teacher is largely the
reason for the prodigious talent. Parents
have difficulty accepting this; they
feel that it must be their genes and
not the teacher, and that the talent
is independent of the teacher. So
they switch to some stuffed shirt with
big credentials and a big reputation, and an
ego to match, and this new teacher proceeds
to thoroughly destroy the student's talent.

So I would leave things exactly as they
are. Alas, but it is in human nature
to destroy what is outstanding. When we
see a beautiful flower, we can't resist
plucking it and putting in a container
filled with water, thereby destroying it.

Why must you make this "point" to just about everyone who asks any question about their children's musical education. Do you not see that it is meaningless given the lack of information you have? Do you not see that you offer no criteria for when to switch that a reasonable person could use to evaluate their own personal case. Do you not see that your dogmatic insistence on this 'point' guarantees that any thinking person will discard everything you say.

Bah, why do I waste my time?