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#949309 - 09/13/08 10:30 AM Trills:(  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 888
GreenRain Offline
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GreenRain  Offline
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Somewhere in Europe
How to practice trills?

I am currently playing Mozart's Rondo alla turca and 1st movement of Sonata K 545.

I am having severe problems with all those trills... last night, i practice them for 3 hourse, first very slowly and then faster, but i just cant play it at full speed, or sometimes even slowly. I have played trills extremly rarely, so i am trill begginer.
This is so frustrating that any advice will be apreciatte.

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#949310 - 09/13/08 11:27 AM Re: Trills:(  
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pianoexcellence Offline
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pianoexcellence  Offline
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Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Quote
Originally posted by GreenRain:
How to practice trills?

I am currently playing Mozart's Rondo alla turca and 1st movement of Sonata K 545.

I am having severe problems with all those trills... last night, i practice them for 3 hourse, first very slowly and then faster, but i just cant play it at full speed, or sometimes even slowly. I have played trills extremly rarely, so i am trill begginer.
This is so frustrating that any advice will be apreciatte.
We need you to be more specific.

What exactly is keeping you from playing trills well?
Do you experience tension?
What fingers are you trying to use?
When was the last time your piano was regulated?
What is your general technique level (scales chords arpeggios)
Are you typing, or using rotation?

If you can think of anything else relevant, then please post it so we can help more fully.


Music is the surest path to excellence

Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT
Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs
#949311 - 09/13/08 11:48 AM Re: Trills:(  
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GreenRain Offline
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GreenRain  Offline
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Somewhere in Europe
thanks for reply

1)Ussually its the fact that i cant play them correctly at all. For example, first trill in rondo (5th measure) and those trills in left hand:
The problem with them is, that they sound like i would play all of the notes at the same time, and not one after another.

2.)Ussually no, except in playing chord thrills (like the one in left hand in turkish march)

3.) ussually 1,2 and 3 or 2,3 and 4 in right hand.

4.)4 months ago. It's pretty out of tune right now, i already called tuner and he'll come next week.

5.)My technique is bad, and i never practice scales. I just start practice them few days ago.

6.) I dont know what you mean with that.

I dont know if anything else is important except what i wrote above... and the fact that i rarely played trills in past...

#949312 - 09/13/08 06:42 PM Re: Trills:(  
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Mankeh Offline
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Mankeh  Offline
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Forgive me if I'm wrong but a trill is where two notes are repeated in rapid succession, that's not a technical definition!

I've never heard of a chord trill, though I gather you mean the A major bridge from Alla Turca where the left hand must arpeggiate a few notes very quickly, I think this is an appoggiatura, I could be wrong though.

Trills take a lot of work, tension could be a problem, do you have a teacher who could give you some exercices to help?

#949313 - 09/14/08 04:21 AM Re: Trills:(  
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Chris H. Offline
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Chris H.  Offline
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UK.
Sounds like you don't yet have the dexterity required to execute the trills cleanly and clearly. If all the notes are clumping together then you are not articulating your fingers correctly for whatever reason. It will come with time and practice but you really need someone to work with you on this.

These pieces might be a bit out of your reach at the moment. If you really want to play them then you could leave out a lot of the ornamentation or simplify them with fewer notes.


Pianist and piano teacher.
#949314 - 09/14/08 05:58 AM Re: Trills:(  
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keyboardklutz Offline
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Once again my trill exercise. I should do it myself more often! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx6hCtGaO3U


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#949315 - 09/14/08 06:33 AM Re: Trills:(  
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Kreisler Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
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Iowa City, IA
Something to keep in mind:

The technique used for trills is something that's developed over a period of time. You can't get frustrated over 3 hours of practicing them. Do 10 minutes a day for 3 months, then you'll be on the right track.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#949316 - 09/14/08 09:14 AM Re: Trills:(  
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Minaku Offline
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Minaku  Offline
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Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
I agree with Kreisler. You have to practice your trills the same way percussionists practice their rolls - slowly, carefully, and daily. It takes a long time to build an even, moderate tempo trill. Months. It takes years to build a repertoire of ornaments. Don't get too discouraged!

I had a student who was the same way. He was frustrated because he didn't have a good trill after 2 months. His issue was tension in the hand while doing the trill. That led to him basically shaking his hand from side to side instead of relaxing and letting the fingers do the work. Beware of the same thing happening to you, and practice slowly!


Pianist and teacher with a 5'8" Baldwin R and Clavi CLP-230 at home.

New website up: http://www.studioplumpiano.com. Also on Twitter @QQitsMina
#949317 - 09/14/08 03:15 PM Re: Trills:(  
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GreenRain Offline
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GreenRain  Offline
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Somewhere in Europe
Thanks for all replys...it was really interesting reading them and also very usefull...i will also look the video that was post:)

I will talk with my teacher and ask her for some
more exercises....I will work on this thrills slowly... because i spent so much time on both pieces, i wont just stop playing them... But i wont get frustrated if i will mess up few trills...
After all, this pieces could be indicator of my progress after few months:)

And i know it takes a looooooooooooooooooot of time...
I have also start working on technique (first step are scales), and i know that progress is going to be small and wont be visible before 6 months of practice, if not a whole year:)

#949318 - 09/14/08 03:55 PM Re: Trills:(  
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propianist Offline
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propianist  Offline
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England
Mozart used the following finger exercise to develop trills...

Start a long trill with thumb and index finger (1-2) Play at nice consistent tempo that you can maintain.
Keep playing trill (on the same two notes), but switch fingering while you play through pairs of adjacent fingers, in the order listed below, to exercise all useful combinations you might want in musical context.

1-2
1-3
2-3
2-4
3-4
3-5
4-5
3-5
3-4
2-4
2-3
1-3
1-2

Most people will play fast on 1-2 and 1-3, but slow down in agony(!) by the time they reach 4-5, so it's best to take the whole exexcise at a reasonable tempo you can keep going steady.

The aim is to be able to play trills consistently fast and smooth across all fingers (even using little pinky) just as well as you can with 1-3 (usually the fastest.)
Work to develop faster speed as you repeat the whole exercise, and try it with the left hand sometimes as well. Use different white and black note combinations for further variety.

Many classical pianists also trill with rapidly alternating fingering like this 1-2-1-3-1-2-1-3-1-2-1-3-1 etc...

#949319 - 09/14/08 04:37 PM Re: Trills:(  
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Chris H. Offline
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Chris H.  Offline
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UK.
Quote
Originally posted by GreenRain:

I will talk with my teacher and ask her for some
more exercises....I will work on this thrills slowly...
Sounds good to me laugh


Pianist and piano teacher.
#949320 - 09/14/08 04:38 PM Re: Trills:(  
Joined: Apr 2008
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GreenRain Offline
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GreenRain  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 888
Somewhere in Europe
Thanks for this... i will defenetly try practing those combinations... smile

#949321 - 09/15/08 08:56 AM Re: Trills:(  
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keyboardklutz Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by propianist:
Mozart used the following finger exercise to develop trills...
This is quite exciting. Have you got a reference for it?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#949322 - 09/15/08 11:17 AM Re: Trills:(  
Joined: Jun 2008
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propianist Offline
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propianist  Offline
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England
Quote
Originally posted by propianist:
Mozart used the following finger exercise to develop trills...
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
This is quite exciting. Have you got a reference for it?
Yes, of course.
I read it from the famous book " The Virtuoso Pianist in 60 Exercises " by French piano professor Charles-Louis Hanon (1819-1900), where it is found as part of Exercise 46.
You can buy this book from most music shops, or download free from this website as a pdf in three parts. (The trill exercise #46 is found in Part Three , on page 6 of that pdf file.)


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#949323 - 09/15/08 01:54 PM Re: Trills:(  
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keyboardklutz Offline
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Thanks for that. Just don't tell anyone I downloaded Hanon.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#949324 - 09/16/08 12:44 PM Re: Trills:(  
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propianist Offline
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propianist  Offline
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I won't tell anyone you need the practise!

#949325 - 10/16/08 01:08 PM Re: Trills:(  
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propianist Offline
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propianist  Offline
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Posts: 263
England
Quote
Originally posted by GreenRain:
I am currently playing Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca...
Speaking of which, I also played and recorded "Rondo Alla Turca" recently, in a completely different context, to test out eighteen different digital piano / software sounds... (If anybody's interested in the digital piano / software side of things, the relevant discussion thread is also found here on Piano World forum.)

But anyway, I thought you might like to watch this closeup live performance video of "Rondo Alla Turca" on YouTube.


Watch my "Rondo Alla Turca" video on YouTube


This is the original Mozart version obviously!

But if you really want to be amazed, have a look at the work of Arcadi Volodos, the famous virtuoso Russian pianist who has composed an incredibly difficult paraphrase arrangement of Rondo Alla Turca...!

"Volodos" Turkish March - brilliantly played by Yuja Wang - YouTube video

Performed by Arcadi Volodos (composer) himself - YouTube video

Volodos Turkish March - closeup of hands on keyboard - Youtube video

And if you want to find the sheet music for this piece, (original Mozart is 4 pages, Volodos is 13 pages!) you can find it here:

Volodos Turkish March full piano score - viewable online

#949326 - 10/16/08 08:30 PM Re: Trills:(  
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Lostinidlewonder Offline
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Lostinidlewonder  Offline
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West Australia
The thing is trill are very easy but should be treated as ornamentation which is an art form in music that most people do not ever get (even the pros sometimes). I won't talk about the fingering because that is not a general thing we can discuss but certainly what is common to all is that you have to learn how to listen to trills in its different groupings.

Anyone can play a trill it is as you add more notes to the trill that people get confused.
Lets say I ask them to play the notes C then D.
Then I will add some more, I will say, ok CD was hitting the D one time, what if we want to do that 2 times? Then I ask them to play CDCD but without focusing on the individual notes, just listening to the fact that they have connected 2 single groups together. Then I will ask them to do 4, doubling again their efforts, this time they have to hear 2 groups of CDCD. You continue the process until they can hear groups of trill instead of focusing on single notes then we can look at the individuals fingers.


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