Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
129 registered members (Alex Hutor, Alex_, anotherscott, Andy001, ando, amad23, 31 invisible), 1,294 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#947187 - 04/16/08 09:49 AM Re: Do you teach your students "how" to listen?  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,188
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,188
Canada
I lost my second post answering part of your question. Moving to the next note is relative pitch, and I have the scale, or at least the tonic, sitting somewhere in the back of my mind. I think most people have chords sitting in the back of their minds - sort of like a ladder or framework that everything sits in as you hop about. In relative pitch I think you learn to move in seconds, (whole step), then thirds, fifths, fourths, and relate the other intervals to those. I'm trying to get a better ear for that right now by playing some of my written theory exercises and anticipating what they will sound like first. It seems to have an effect.

(Oops, I just noticed that this is the teacher forum. Maybe we should move the rest of the discussion over to the AB forum)

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#947188 - 04/16/08 11:57 AM Re: Do you teach your students "how" to listen?  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
How to sing. For men: G on the bottom line of the bass clef to f below middle c should be easy. Higher and you'll need some advice.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#947189 - 04/16/08 12:48 PM Re: Do you teach your students "how" to listen?  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9
LifeLongLearner [LLL] Offline
Junior Member
LifeLongLearner [LLL]  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9
Pacific Northwest
sorry, double posted!!


Harmoniously,
s/LLL
#947190 - 04/16/08 12:49 PM Re: Do you teach your students "how" to listen?  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9
LifeLongLearner [LLL] Offline
Junior Member
LifeLongLearner [LLL]  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9
Pacific Northwest
After 26+ years singing in an “a capella” group and with the added experience of being a section leader and assistant director, I have found that most SINGERS don't listen to the other parts in the chorus. After working on a piece for several weeks or even months, individuals retain learned errors, even though they have been corrected many times. I believe that they are also not actively and critically listening when they perform, but relying on what we call "muscle memory" to sing their part.

I suspect that this also happens to pianists. The important thing to teach is how to actively and critically listen each and every time a piece is performed. Rehearsal/practice/lesson-time IS performance but for a smaller audience, usually the instructor and yourself.

A critical listener will have the ability to anticipate the next note or chord and without humming it [instrumentalists] will know the correct note has been played.

There are several old clichés that apply to musicians as well as other activities. Some should be permanently deleted or at the very least revised.

Among them is: “Practice makes perfect.” To be more correct it should be said that “Only perfect practice makes perfect.” Of course, we know it is difficult it is to achieve a perfect practice.

Another is “Practice until you get it right.” This is a negative approach, since it infers that you are doing it wrong; again it should be restated more positively to say “Practice until you can’t get it wrong!!”

I hope that this adds some useful perspective to this discussion


s/LLL


Harmoniously,
s/LLL
#947191 - 04/16/08 07:30 PM Re: Do you teach your students "how" to listen?  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,188
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,188
Canada
LLL, this is one I'm printing out. thx

Ks

#947192 - 05/29/08 04:09 PM Re: Do you teach your students "how" to listen?  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,645
Akira Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Akira  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,645
Los Angeles, CA
I'm having some difficulty this week that made me think of this thread. Hope you don't mind me trudging it up.

I do Hanon exercises daily. As you all know, a critical part of these exercises is to create an even tone and distinctness for every note. The note patterns are easily memorized, which allows me the luxury of not having to use any resources looking at music. When practicing, I close my eyes and listen carefully - very carefully, focusing purely on the sounds that I'm creating. Are all the notes equal in duration and tonality at the speed I am trying to achieve? I thought it was, but was surprised to find out at my lesson that I was wrong? There was an unevenness to it, which I honestly could not hear, despite my best attempts.

Obviously, I don't fully understand what's wrong. I simply can't hear it. Maybe my listening skills are not sufficiently developed. Maybe I'm not listening carefully enough, even though I "think" I am. If I can't hear the deficiencies, there doesn't seem to be any (current) hope of me correcting it.

My teacher played the same exercise. I listened carefully. It was even and I could detect no imperfections. So, I think I do have an intellectual understanding of what I was suppose to achieve. I asked him to exaggerate the unevenness he was hearing when I played it and I intellectually understood where the deficiency was occuring (darn pinkies and ring fingers playing too soft again). I played it again, focusing on the problem. He said, yes, that's it. I corrected the problem, but honestly could not hear the difference between the first and last time I played it, which leads me to believe similar problems will occur in the future (i.e. I have yet to sufficiently develop a good ear to detect certain deficiencies).

I could not help but think that the act of playing while listening is adversely affecting my ability to 'really' listen. Maybe I should record it and listen more closely with an objective and dispassionate ear. Haven't tried it yet, but its worth a shot.

Any advice or suggestions (or even a "What you're going through is normal.") for listenening exercises would be appreciated. smile

Thanks guys for reading.

#947193 - 05/29/08 04:46 PM Re: Do you teach your students "how" to listen?  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
You did the right thing to ask your teacher to exaggerate. When students play scales where hands are not together, I imitate their playing with some exaggeration. It takes a while but they get it. The key is NOT to mechanically direct your fingers. Just learning what the fault sounds like will put it right.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#947194 - 05/29/08 04:49 PM Re: Do you teach your students "how" to listen?  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,188
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,188
Canada
Akira, I went through intensive ear training last year. It was for pitch with voice, but some of the principles transfer.

The mind boggling new concept is: we listen to what we play after we play it, don't we? We play a note, and then we listen to how it sounds and whether it is correct. Well, if you think about it, it's too late by then, you've played it.

What I learned to do is to perceive in my mind what I wanted to play. I would have to hear it in my mind. Then I sing (play) and while I am playing it, I listen that it is the same as I intended.

Next discovery: If you do manage to actually listening to what you are playing, anticipating and playing what you anticipate, you'll find that you tune out as in "There, job's done, I hit the note."

In my singing exercise that was shown by a slight drift in pitch. I had good pitch to begin with, so this was a matter of cents.

So now you've done the daunting task: you have imagined your note (its loudness and pitch, though you can only control the loudness), and you have played that one note, and you have listened to the note while you played it. 1 second of listening.

While you are still listening to that note, imagine your next note. It will be comparative. How loud do you want it to be in comparison to the first note: hear it in your mind. Play and listen to make sure that it has the loudness that you had in mind and keep listening. You will also be hearing whether it is the same loudness.

You will do the same with the third note, but you will probably find that by the third note you have stopped anticipating and listening. In the beginning, if I managed 15 seconds I was doing well. It is shocking to discover you haven't been listening when you thought you were.

Now the bad news: frown I just tried it on the piano on a C major scale. F is quieter than E and I never noticed before. And my mind drifted before I could get to G. :b:

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Taubman technique - any thoughts?
by BobTB. 12/15/17 05:34 PM
Kawai es110 vs kawai es8
by Jitin. 12/15/17 03:44 PM
Need plate refinishing recommendations!
by synthnut. 12/15/17 03:14 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics183,288
Posts2,679,460
Members89,273
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0