|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
68 members (benkeys, Burkhard, Abdulrohmanoman, accordeur, BWV846, Animisha, Anglagard44, 11 invisible),
2,168
guests, and
438
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
OP
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
I was never taught the scales and only lately memorized the them because a friend persuaded me of their value. So, what is a good practice regimen for scales? Currently I play them hands together and in octaves. (I practice between 2-3 hours a day, try to do more, and play at about some a grade 8 level but know almost no theory.)
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391 |
Which scales are you doing? Generally at this level, I'd say play 4 octaves of every scale (say, all major keys) chromatically. So you'd start doing C major, then C# major, etc. until you get back to C major again. Also, don't forget arpeggios, which you can do in the same fashion. You can also do this with minor scales, though I'd recommend choosing one mode to do all of them in (natural, harmonic, or melodic). You can also practice chromatic scales, whole tone scales (but there are only 2 whole tone scales).
private piano/voice teacher FT
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946 |
I read the title of this thread quickly and thought it said "How do I get out of practicing scales?"
What does that say about me?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753 |
What I am about to say will not make sense at first. Practice all your exercises S-L-O-W-L-Y at 40 on the metronome (2 per click). Velocity will only come when you are completely in control. When playing slow, there will be a tendency to play with tension. Confront the tension immediately...breathe...ensure flexibility in wrist...pre-imagine, produce and evaluate sounds. Show me an advanced student who is willing to play exercises at or below 40 for two months...and I'll show you a student who will go on to do amazing things at the piano. Playing this slow gives you time to be thoroughly aware: 1) Start with arm-weight technique (transferring weight from fingertip to fingertip...imagine a line from your elbow joint right over your knuckles to the tip of your finger) 2) when using arm weight, legato is assured, now think more of clarity in tone. Be especially aware with your outside fingers 3-4-5 3) I am assuming that you are practicing chords too? IMHO Broken chords are the best bang for your buck (use finger 4-5 a lot more) 4) Play placing each finger in the EXACT CENTER of each note. Be picky. Brushing up against the side of an adjacent note is considered a fault. 5) play hands separately when you want to concentrate on tone. (most important) 6) Play hands together when you want to concentrate on evenness or work on balance techniques. Above all...be patient. Focus only on one of the 6 at a time. With every new concept, follow a patient pattern of exaggerating, de-emphasizing, and internalizing. Your concentration will best thrive in the land of the possible. When you have enough time spent on these 6 concepts, write back, and I'll post 6 more. You will go up and down in ability over the weeks and months. It is like dollar-cost averaging. You put in your $500 each month, and sometimes it goes up an sometimes it goes down. Over the long term, it goes up. (Although I've stopped looking at my portfolio lately... I can't bear to see how my wealth is evaporating)
Music is the surest path to excellence
Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862 |
i enjoy practicing them with a metronome in 3/3 time for a change
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753 |
Originally posted by apple*: i enjoy practicing them with a metronome in 3/3 time for a change Me too...and 2 on 3 is good too. Just remember to start two octaves apart if you are playing 3 in the left hand.
Music is the surest path to excellence
Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,124
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,124 |
I practice my scales in 8th notes, triplets and 16ths ,..four octaves...I apply the same rhythms to the arpeggios and also practice RH/LH scales in octaves and chromatics....I use a metronome but am going to take the advice given and practice more slowly.
There's nothing like playing the piano.
rada
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753 |
Originally posted by keystring: Pardon - 3/3 time? She means tripelets I think...
Music is the surest path to excellence
Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
Maybe triplets in both hands.
Jeremy, you and John were discussing something about things your respective students do not pay attention to in terms of the sound that is actually produced (listening factor?) Over here you have mentioned goals of tone for separate hands, balance (between left & right?) and evenness (HS and HT) and I guess legato as things to aim for listening-wise. Are there others?
With piano as my second instrument I do not have regular systematic lessons. I've been following the approach of Francis Cooke. He begins with the slow metronome. There are exercises for using the thumb before even starting on scales, and a "radiating" scale where you are crossing over playing the first 2, 3, 4 notes going either direction bringing that movement into the hand. Then each scale goes parallel, contrary, and in thirds and sixths (for opposing hands) both parallel and contrary. The order of scales is roughly circle of fifths since he puts them in the order of the black key groupings that govern fingering. I've gleaned that, but nothing about "quality" such as tone.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753 |
Originally posted by rada: There's nothing like playing the piano.
rada You said it. When you play in complete control, and the sounds that come out of the piano are the sounds that you imagined it is like: Fresh powder for a skier Mountain Roads for a sports car A calm lake for a water skier A spotless home for a homemaker. Unlike many other instruments...playing the piano feels very good physically.
Music is the surest path to excellence
Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753 |
Keystring,
I'd keep using the Cook exercises but
1) Use arm-weight 2) Focus on clarity 3) lead with your elbow (elbows out) on the thumb changes. This allows your thumb to operate on an advantageous plane with a "thumb-beside" movement (difficult to explain over a forum), and evens out the akward up-down-ish movement that is necessary to complete a true "thumb under" movement. 4) Play slow
Music is the surest path to excellence
Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534 |
I'm not convinced of the value of scale practice. At one time I used to practice all of them, maj. and the 3 types of min., in all keys. But currently I only do C maj. and only a few repetitions.
I see several problems with extensive scale practice. First, scales take a lot of energy to play well, which leaves less energy for your repertoire and other work, and repertoire work is the most important thing for an amateur classical player. Next, I've come to believe that too much scale practice might actually be bad for you, because in real music your fingers and ears--out of habit from extensive scale playing--will tend to reach for the next scale tone, but you don't run across scales that much in real music, so what your finger and ear reaches for will be a wrong note.
Also, I don't see the fundamental benefit of scales for training the ear for the different keys. This is best learned on the job, so to speak. Mindless scale playing in order to gain understanding and familiarity with all the keys is only going to train you to reach for wrong notes, in my view. I've come to see scales as primarily a physical exercise in crossing fingers, which is an important technique in playing. And since the finger crossing motion is similar in all scales, the argument could be made that you could get by with playing only one, and since C maj. is the most difficult, it would make sense to practice it only.
And I've come to believe that the playing of scales in diatonic (not chromatic) intervals of thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, and sevenths is much more beneficial technically and should be done at the expense of regular scales.
Also, I've found that the sight-reading of material much above your level--for example, say, 1-3 pages of a big Romantic Era concerto movement--is very beneficial, but this needs to be done at the start of the practice session when you're still fresh in order to benefit from it, and so scale work at the start of practice needs to be minimized in order that you don't exhaust yourself early.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 753 |
Originally posted by Gyro: I'm not convinced of the value of scale practice. At one time I used to practice all of them, maj. and the 3 types of min., in all keys. But currently I only do C maj. and only a few repetitions.
I see several problems with extensive scale practice. First, scales take a lot of energy to play well, which leaves less energy for your repertoire and other work, and repertoire work is the most important thing for an amateur classical player. Next, I've come to believe that too much scale practice might actually be bad for you, because in real music your fingers and ears--out of habit from extensive scale playing--will tend to reach for the next scale tone, but you don't run across scales that much in real music, so what your finger and ear reaches for will be a wrong note.
Also, I don't see the fundamental benefit of scales for training the ear for the different keys. This is best learned on the job, so to speak. Mindless scale playing in order to gain understanding and familiarity with all the keys is only going to train you to reach for wrong notes, in my view. I've come to see scales as primarily a physical exercise in crossing fingers, which is an important technique in playing. And since the finger crossing motion is similar in all scales, the argument could be made that you could get by with playing only one, and since C maj. is the most difficult, it would make sense to practice it only.
And I've come to believe that the playing of scales in diatonic (not chromatic) intervals of thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, and sevenths is much more beneficial technically and should be done at the expense of regular scales.
Also, I've found that the sight-reading of material much above your level--for example, say, 1-3 pages of a big Romantic Era concerto movement--is very beneficial, but this needs to be done at the start of the practice session when you're still fresh in order to benefit from it, and so scale work at the start of practice needs to be minimized in order that you don't exhaust yourself early. 1) If scales are taking a lot of physical energy, then there is a good chance that you have tension in your playing. Many students tense their extensor muscles unknowingly while playing scales. Anyone who finds it physically exhausting needs to break down the movement, confront their tension, and rebuild their scale playing free of tension. You, Gyro have made a very good argument FOR PRACTICING SCALES. 2) Is repertoire the most important thing for an amateur pianist? Maybe for a recreational pianist. The original poster is clearly trying to take their playing to the next level. 3) I do not share your experience that scale playing causes one to reach for the wrong note. If anything, Scales Chords, and arpeggios provide a visual framework for each key. When in the confines of a key, Scales, especially formula patterns help the pianist develop a sixth sense for the shapes that are felt in keys. For students that have trouble in fugues, the first step is mastering the formula pattern. 4) Mindless scale playing will do much worse things than merely lead you to the wrong notes 5) I come closest to agreeing with your "C major is the only necessary scale" comment. That is something worth considering from a technique standpoint, but not from a keyboard harmony standpoint. 6) Sight reading very difficult music is great for when you don't care about rhythm in sight reading. Not caring about rhythm in sight reading is like not caring when your paycheck envelope comes to you empty. It misses the whole point. 7) Please explain what you mean by "scales in diatonic intervals" I'm curious...it sounds neat. Gyro...I enjoy your contrarian views on this forum, they make me think.
Music is the surest path to excellence
Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,949
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,949 |
Originally posted by pianoexcellence: 7) Please explain what you mean by "scales in diatonic intervals" I'm curious...it sounds neat. I think he's trying to describe hands playing different scales simultaneously. For example, R.H. plays C major scale while L.H. plays phrygian mode starting on E. Hands stay a 6th apart the entire time. There may be some value to this type of scale practice (there is an example of this at the end of Chopin's Ballade No. 1), but the problem is there are so many different permutations of keys and intervals.
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534 |
Pianoexcellence, my current practice routine consists of a brief warmup with scales, arpeggios, intervalic scales, and a short jazz arrangement that I keep ready in case I'd ever be called on to play something. The emphasis is on brevity, because the next thing is sight-reading of a few pages of a big Romantic Era concerto movement, which takes a huge amount of energy and requires that I still be fresh when playing it.
It's then right into repertoire. The first piece of which is the Chopin A min. mazurka, the difficult one with the r.h. triplets. I play it one time through only. This is a concert pianist-level piece--one of the most difficult pieces in the repertoire to play well, in my opinion--but I'm not a concert pianist-level player, and one time through is all I can manage without frying my nerves and burning myself out. And it's not simply a case of me being "too tense" when I play; you can't simply relax and expect to play something difficult like this if you're an amateur of below average ability.
It's then into the major piece in my repertoire work, a big-time Romantic Era concerto movement, one of the most difficult in the repertoire, in my opinion. I play it through one time only, as fast as I can; I've now got it up to about 3/4 speed or better--unbelievable for an inept, run-of-the-mill amateur like myself. One time through is all I can manage without burning myself out. After that one time through I'm nearly spent and have precious little left for the rest of practice. Thus, I can't even do extra work on the most difficult sections of it; one time through at maximum speed is all that I can do with it--I'm relying on one repetition per day like this over time to work it up to speed.
The next piece is the first of the Trois Nouvelles Etudes. At this point I'm tired and I'll do one page of it, one time through only. I've been working on this for more than ten years, and I now have it more or less up to speed and memorized, but it's still a work in progress. Then the next piece is the Butterfly Etude, one page, time through only.
At this point I may play the first of the Trois Nouvelle Etudes all the way through from memory, one time only; I have no energy for anything more than that.
Now I'm ready to call it quits, and anything further is of a supplementary nature, because I can only just barely plod through anything now. Currently I do one page of the Chopin No. 3 Ballade, a piece that I've worked on in the past and have familiarity with, and the op. 30 no. 2 mazurka, all the way through one time only. Then I might do some brief jazz work.
That's the end of practice, and I can barely move now. I'm working on concert pianist-level repertoire, without concert pianist-level talent or training (I have below average talent and I had low-quality instruction as a child), and so I've taken myself to the limits of my physical capabilities without actually frying my nerves and completely burning myself out. Sometimes I have to skip the next day's practice because I'm too beaten up by the previous day's work.
Thus, for an amateur like myself energy expenditure is critical, and scales have low priority in my practice routine; I keep them to a bare minimum in order to save the energy for repertoire work. This is not a case of me being "too tense" when playing so that I use up too much energy in "the tension." You can't work on difficult pieces like this, with below average ability, by simply relaxing your hands on the keys. You've got to work long and hard on them. When you've got them all polished up and memorized, then you can "relax" when playing them, because you've done the hard work necessary to build mammoth amount of (piano-type) strength to play them "relaxed."
Diatonic (not chromatic) intervallic scales I consider to be the single most beneficial technical exercise at the keyboard. The journals and biographies of Beethoven and Chopin seem to suggest that they played them regularly--this apparently was the fundamental technical exercise at the keyboard in the old days. When playing diatonic interval scales, you use only the notes contained in the scale. So C maj. in diatonic thirds is: CE DF EG FA GB AC BD CE. A chromatic-type scale in thirds starting with CE would use non-scale tones: CE C#E# DF# D#G, etc. I consider chromatic interval scales as a trendy modern device of little technical merit.
When playing diatonic interval scales, you play CE with the r.h., like a two-note chord, at the same time that you play CE with the l.h. an octave lower. Then DF with the r.h. and DF with the l.h., etc. So you're playing a series of two- note chords with both hands in a scale-like fashion.
C maj. in diatonic fourths is: CF DG, etc. Diatonic fifths: CG DA, etc. Sixths: CA DB, etc. Sevenths: CB DC, etc. Sixths and sevenths are especially beneficial because the large stretch forces you to employ fingers 4 and 5 to a large extent, fingers that, together with the thumb, are the weakest in the hand and need more work, but are rarely given a meaningful workout in the usual technical studies.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
For example, R.H. plays C major scale while L.H. plays phrygian mode starting on E. Hands stay a 6th apart the entire time. AZN, I'm always trying to learn. I know what you mean by Phrygian mode, that when you play from E to E on the white keys the resulting intervals gives you a Phrygian mode scale. Is this also an alternate way of describing this kind of interval between two same scales, which I've known as being a sixth apart? Is "sixth apart" incorrect when there are separate hands, or just another way of saying it? Were it to be the alternate, right hand starting on C and left hand starting on A, in your system would you call that Aeolean in the left, Ionian in the right, instead of a third apart in separate hands? Sorry for being OT. You've piqued my interest. KS
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 170
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 170 |
pianoexcellence,
I've been trying out your suggestions. It's a lot harder than it sounds. Playing evenly in tempo at 40 bpm is difficult. Hard for me to really internalize a beat that slow. I'm playing quarter notes. Is that what you are recommending? You said 2 per click. Does that mean eighth notes at 40?
Can you explain what you mean by "clarity"? My interpretation is that you mean to be sure to bring both hands down at the same time.
Thanks.
Matt
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
OP
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
Thank you all and particularly Pianoexcellence. I started your program this morning.
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,919
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,919 |
Originally posted by Gyro: I'm not convinced of the value of scale practice. All of my students who practice scales and play them well are able to make a much better job of their repertoire. In all my years of teaching I have never known this not to be the case. If I were to sum up how to get the best out of scale practice it would be to listen carefully as you practice them.
Pianist and piano teacher.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,405
Posts3,349,434
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|