Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum What happened creative exchange of ideas here?

I wonder what the purpose of the teacher's forum is, or what it might be.

Of course it might be many things to many people, but lately something has disturbed me so much that I have seriously considered leaving. Not leaving as in doing anything official, just leaving because of lack of interest.

So much time is spent debating how to teach certain concepts that to me are basic and rather self-explanatory that it seems as though we rarely have any creative, thoughtful discussions about how to use these concepts.

Over the last week or so the whole subject of "tetrachords" has been rather hotly debated, yet it seems to me that any attempt to talk about how to use this concept creatively has been ignored, while fights have nearly broken out over whether or not to use an asterisk before the first "W".

I mentioned to one person in PW that "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" (Micky and the brooms) ends with the C# D# E# F# tetrachord. To my young students, I have mentioned that "The Adam's Family Theme" gives you two of them, for instance:

C D E F click click
D E F# G click click
D E F# G , D E F# G
C D E F click click

And showed them that using F and G as starting points works equally, so they get four of the 12 instantly.

Now, if all of you are already teaching these exact same ideas, or if such ideas are useless to anyone else but me, then the silence is understandable and explains to me why when I attempted to start a discussion about actually associating tetrachords with what we know, intuitively, I did not even get one response. Or perhaps someone though I was trying to start a fight, which was absolutely not my intention.

It just seems to me that teachers want to hammer away at what we should teach but welcome little or no feedback about how individual teachers use these concepts. With the debates about "appliances vs real pianos" and "asterisks or not asterisks" before letters mapping out tetrachords, almost everything that is important to me as a teacher trying to pick the brains of other fine teachers has gone out the window.

(returning to fix typos…)

You really think so Gary?

Are you saying you are finding no fine teachers with brains for you to pick here?

I might intrepret that to mean your peer group is not here, is that what you mean?

I'm sorry the asterisks bothered you so much, I wondered why something so legitimate was so grossly unobserved by other teachers. It made me wonder if most of us do not understand our subject material.

So, I'm having the same dilemma, I must admit.

Criticism is one thing, constructive criticism is another, insults are still another thing - all within the content of communication or lack of it.

Who's next?

No. I'm saying that we are not communciating well. In my opinion.
No.
Betty, you are misinterpreting everything I tried to say. You are missing the point.

The point is that the whole tetrachord idea is so simple, so elegant, so useful in a thousand ways that it is all but destroyed by over-analysis. To assume that any of us don't understand tetrachords or don't know how to teach them is, to me, ridiculous. And this is not the only subject that seems to be debated as if there is only one way to teach it, or one way to use it.

I am incapable of reading any discussion on *anything* without paying attention to new ideas, and I try to use *anything* new, if it might work.

Now, for the record, I don't teach what you teach. It's too blasted complicated for my little kids. I teach them to count keys, one for each note. C-2-2-1. Start with a note, move 2 to the right, 2 more to the right, 1 more. That's it. I can teach this to a five year-old, no problem. I MAY replace the "C" with an asterisk, or with an "X marks the spot X":

X-2-2-1

Very little kids will not worry about what the first symbol is. Older kids might prefer one symbol or the other, but honestly, they all DO it long before we worry about HOW. And I believe that is lost in these discussions. Do you understand?

We begin to worry more about the *method* than if the *method* WORKS.

The same thing happens in discussions about scales. People start arguing about what is the right way to teach them, when to me the only important thing is they become absorbed, used and understood.

I was also totally ignored when I mentioned that scales, to me, are in 7 notes sets, with repeated patterns of 3 and 4. Again, it is as if by simply mentioning that my mind processes this information a bit differently than what is most often presented in books, my ideas are inherently flawed or evey useless, even if they work *for at least* a minority of people.
I'm not interpreting ideas that conflict with mine as insults. I disagree strongly with some of your conclusions (lately) about how things *must* be taught. That does not mean that I am insulting you, Betty.

I do shake my head at times when I write something that I think might be interesting, and I get no response, but if I interpreting every idea that strongly contadicts mine as an insult, let me tell you, I would fell highly insulted all the time.

Gary, I suspect this forum is different things to different people.

I discovered the forum 2 1/2 years ago, and thought that perhaps it would be a great way to help younger, less experienced teachers especially with the mechanics of teaching. Many teachers don't live in an environment like Betty and I are fortunate to live in, where we have literally hundreds of peers to meet with and discuss issues.

I would love to discuss students, but as this is a public forum, it could prove disastrous. We discussed the "teacher's lounge" concept some time back, and a number of us long for such a capability.

In these two and a half years I've been here, we've discussed almost every conceivable topic, sometimes more than once. I'm open to revisiting them, because we change and/or we may have had new ideas on the subject.

I find the announcements useful for myself, which is why I post them from time to time. I hope it helps other teachers.

My pet peeve, however, is students coming here for advice. It seems to me that the proper place for that is either on the Adult Beginner forum or the general piano forum. I understand why they often do come here, however, as when I first started, I offered advice there, and found that totally inexperienced pianists would contradict you in a heartbeat. I'm not a charity, and as my going rate is $45/hr, I don't need to be insulted on top of providing a free service.

As for the concept of tetrachords, I kind of smiled when you brought it up. I used to teach it, but for the past six years or so, I've been introducing students to one octave scales almost immediately and by the end of their first year, they can play all the white key major and minor scales. I still do cover the basic concept, but just as flavoring as I teach the students the scales.

Gary....the reason I didn't respond to your tetrachord/adams family theme, is that I agree with you, and when I talk about tetrachords, I use the adams family theme to demonstrate.

One thing for sure is that every student is different, and it might take different ways of presenting the material to get the student to understand.

H1

Of course!
Well, I have been other forums for two or more years, and there is a tendency for the same old "pearls" to come up again and again.
I am aware of that danger, which is why I only talk about students very generally, and even so I may say too much. On the other hand, the parents of students who have treated me very unfairly are rather unlikely to be reading this forum, and if they did, frankly I would not care!
I'm sure I would abstain if the same topic came up again and I had nothing to add and felt that simply referring to an older topic would get the job done.

I think that what interests me the most is how other teachers are evolving. I keep redefining what I do. One of my former students, a teacher, told me that I keep challenging myself more than any other teacher she has met, and this is because I *will* try something that I'm not sure will work, just to be sure that it is a dead-end. In addition, because most of my students are very young and because I lose so many due to people moving again (thereby losing some of my best students every year), I have been *forced* to explore ways to accelerate the learning of new music for people who have not played long. For me this has been a matter of financial survival, but the efforts to survive have vastly improved what I do. Because I am a maverick, using my own materials, doing a lot of research and investigation into everything, it was my hope that I could share some of the things that may not be standard but that work for me.
Your view is understandable. The flip side is that anyone who comes here thinking that a forum will replace a good teacher is, in my opinion, in for a great disappointment.
This is exactly what I do.

Betty, you are misinterpreting everything I tried to say. You are missing the point. (Gary D)

Gee, Gary, I am not doing that intentionally.

I've become very aware of us not being on the same page, and just how irritated you seem to be with me over several things. I am not trying to misunderstand you, in fact, what I write back to you is what I am understanding you to say, and I ask those questions of you so you can help me understand if I'm missing something.

It wasn't necessary for you to go into the tetrachord dilemma again....we've really beaten that to death. I wasn't trying to annoy people, I was trying to complete a thought so that I could be understood in why I thought it was so important to also see it in a different way. So, I've found out that many teachers don't care about tetrachords....I understand that....as once upon a time I thought they were a detail that didn't have much importance in the scheme of things. But then you find the complete linkage and it really does make a difference.

If I have a serious student quick on the uptake, I am going to make sure this part is understood. Some don't make a point of tetrachords, I do. That is the difference between us. Choice.

I agree with John that I would like for teachers to have some privacy in posting to other teachers for the very reasons he mentions. And, those people who feel so welcome and post so often in the piano teachers forum about their findings and needs and insights, have their own private tutoring services going with us as the tutors. Just chatting away compulsively about whatever is of interest to them at the moment. Exchanges are better in my mind than are dissertations, we have a lot of that too.

Are we as piano teachers to be available 24/7 for this service that is being demanded of us? Lately we are being trolled and we don't recognize it.

People do not become piano teachers just by parroting the pages of a book back - and there is a lot of that going on.

I think piano teachers are at a disadvantage not being able to link with other experienced teachers whom we have many things in common with. That's who I'm looking for when I post on the Piano Teacher's Forum.

Does any of this relate to you as a teacher, Gary? What about other teachers, would some kind of a dividing line for serious teacher only conversations be desirable?

Where do you go to find it?

Gary:

I stayed away from the tetrachord thread because I don't teach it. I go from five-finger positions (all the major and minor keys) directly to C Major scale.

I think there's a fair amount of ideas being exchanged on this forum. There are probably more visitors lurking around than you realize. Our ideas are being shared around the world. Isn't that great??

I know some teachers do want this - but this is a public forum. Even if you were to make a rule that no-one who wasn't a teacher could post (and I don't know how you'd enforce that), you couldn't stop anyone, anywhere in the world, reading it. So you would only have an illusion of privacy. Maybe what you really want is some sort of email newsgroup setup - I don't know how they work exactly, but it may be more what you are looking for.
You and John both use your real names, which means you can't be too specific about your students. I have a forum name, but even though I couldn't be easily identified, I'm still careful when posting about students. I would be mortified if one of them read something on a public forum where I'd been talking about them, as they could very easily do.

Betty also said: And, those people who feel so welcome and post so often in the piano teachers forum about their findings and needs and insights, have their own private tutoring services going with us as the tutors...Are we as piano teachers to be available 24/7 for this service that is being demanded of us?

Of course not. Just don't respond. I don't know about you, but there are far more posts on PW than I have time to read, let alone respond to. So I'm selective. It's only a demand if you let it be.

We had this discussion some months back, and my view hasn't changed. I welcome the perspective of students here, as long as when relevant they make it clear they are not teachers. Our regular student posters do this. I don't in any way feel obliged to be their private tutors! I have however certainly learnt things from students, both in my teaching and in forums like this one.

Gary, you've probably noticed that some of us come and go. We might be very active for a few days, then vanish for another few. I know I do. It's just because of the way my work goes. So if you don't get responses to a post, it may just be that we're all busy, or even that your post was so good that we felt it warranted a lot of thought, which we didn't have at that time. That's what it usually is in my case, anyway .

Betty:

That's true in many of the chapters/branches of professional organizations. Speaking for my own branch of MTAC, our meetings are always poorly attended. It is embarrassing to put on a concert or workshop and have 9 people show up. That happens every year.

What's worse, some of the more "respected" and "experienced" teachers in my branch are actually the most aloof and impersonal when it comes to professional development activities. Most of the time, they don't even bother to show up. They think they got it all right and thus have nothing else to learn. Plus, if they share with us their "trade secrets," then they'll probably end up losing students to joe schmoes like us.

Yeah, really sad if you ask me...

.

I could easily create a "teachers only" forum, which would require proving you are a teacher (of course, that would quickly become a slippery slope).

And, as a "private" forum, only approved members would be able to access or post there.

But...
First I question just how much it would be used, second I question why.

The reason I chose to leave the Teacher Forum public (as I did with the piano tuner-technicians) is BECAUSE I knew the general public would want to peek, and possibly participate.

And while they are at it, they just might learn something that will make them appreciate their teachers (and tuners) a little more.

And, their teachers might learn some things about how their students viewed their teaching, or what they might want, or what concerns them.

Sure, you have to put up with those annoying amateur questions occassionally, but guess what, they are your customers, and they want to learn too.

Now if enough of you really would like a private forum, let me know. But please keep in mind that the "public" sections of our forums are not just for the participants, but also for the "public" to learn.

With well over 1 million posts, we now come up in any number of searches on the major search engines. This means more people are finding us, and in turn, finding you.

And I hope, those who choose to stick around a while enjoy themselves, are inspired to own and learn to play piano, and have some fun!

Gary D, my friend, your point I believe and hold to be loud and clear if not directly aimed at the avid readers of the forums.

What I feel bothers you, as much as it bothers me, is that many times I will come across a topic where scales and all this beginner stuff is being discussed in such a way as if we were discussing the structure of a whole symphony! I was most curious when the whole discussion of tetrachords showed up in that thread, but never commented because these things are supposed to be known by teachers. Yet we find that these discussions as in the 'whole tone' thread are being over-analyzed in my opinion where, honestly speaking, and in agreement with what you said, there are many ways to view scales and all this whole tone stuff, but much of this information actually is useless because many are already figuring these things out by themselves. However, we are not in these forums to actually teach, or at least I thought it was to share our teaching experiences or discoveries. Not to be bombarded with questions of supreme boredom in many cases.
As mentioned about the METHOD, it may not always work. If teachers all around are teaching just one thing in relation to let's say 'tetrachords' then there is a great possibility that many students will not understand. It's like giving every student the same fingering for a certain piece disregarding each of their particular likings to the fingering or hand span. There's always more than 1 way!

We really should be focusing on IF THE METHOD WORKS OR NOT. My most beloved students, in this case the male student became obssessed with playing octaves faster and faster without tension. I tried teaching him right from Hanon first, then Ganz' ideas on symmetrical inversions but really nothing seemed to work for him. I had to look around my books until Cesi's studies for piano proved much better. My female student learned to relax her wrists with Hanon and that worked. So here, I was more concerned with what actually worked, proving to be of great benefit for my 2 pupils.
However, what I just mentioned is something that could be shared in a "PIANO TEACHER'S FORUM" in order to learn from one another and teach all our students with fresh new ideas. We cannot disregard what we all share, because many other things we know actually work for us and could work for all of you. Books are not the definitive source in teaching anything, passion and practice will prove more successful.

I do hope however that people are coming to this forum to ask us everything because as was mentinoed, a huge disappointment lies ahead. A formal instructor will always be better. These forums can help with certain things, but I do in fact find it ridiculous when someone asks, let's say fingering for the C major scale. Am I really going on a forum to answer that question? I always come here in hopes of finding people at least knowledgeable of the fundamentals of music or music playing. I do like what I read from other teachers even if I disagree, but I would like that to be exclusive to teachers only , this way we are not interrupted in lively discussions by questions we really should'nt be answering.

Frank,

As I said to Betty, there is no obligation on you to answer anything. If you feel you "shouldn't" be answering the questions, then don't.

I want to make my own position clear. I wrote:

This was aimed at teachers, not at students. My point was and remains that it is easy to fall into the trap of believing in systems or theories because they are supported, over and over again, as if they were the Holy Grail.

I picked the subject of tetrachords only as an example.

I am not a bit in favor of censoring anyone. I was making an appeal for more open-mindedness, viewing other views with more tolerance.

For the record, I have one little course on my official transcript, from about 40 years ago, that says I know something about teaching. In an official site for piano teachers only, who is to say that *I* would not be admitted? I might not qualify for the "club".

There is no clear line between students and teachers. All teachers should still be students, at least in the larger sense, ready to learn new things, and many students are indeed teaching, on some level.

I joined this forum to share what I know, and if students are afraid to state their views about whether or not the things I say or recommend are valid, in my opinion I have not accomplished anything except to bully them, at least on some level. I can only relate what works for me, as a musician, and what I believe has worked for my students, but just because something has worked does not mean that I can't find something even better.

Bottom line: I'm totally AGAINST a forum that excludes people. I think it's a bad idea.

I'm glad you clarified all that, Gary. I couldn't agree more.

Betty,
That is the problem for me. I don't think we have even *begun* to explore this whole area. I don't teach the whole tetrachord "thing" the same way you do. We have not even started to understand our differences in thinking. Are you interested in what works for me and my students? Or have you already made up your mind?
But what *is* "the complete linkage"? If I, as a musician, don't use them, what am I missing?
Who are "those people"? *I* am *interested* in the needs and insights of people who are learning. If their ideas are not useful to me, I don't have to do more than skim. The only person who bothers me is Gyro, but not because his opinions are not mine, but because he copies and pastes the same views, over and over. To me this is more misleading than any contribution by any other member, because new members are often confused by his posts.
That's rather nasty, isn't it? What is to keep you from labeling my posts as disseratations? Or anyone else you disagree with? Is it OK for me to "post long" because I'm a teacher? What if tomorrow you decide that I don't know enough to make that claim, of being a teacher?

What if someone tomorrow decides *your* posts are dissertations? Or that you don't really know enough to give advice? Where does it end?
*Who* is demanding *anything* from us? Did someone make you join this forum? Did someone make me join it? I am under zero obligation to answer anyone, either in public or in private. If we are being trolled, then who are the trolls? It's cowardly and mean to make vieled accusations in this manner.
Who has done that? Name one person. I have seen people share what they have learned, and how they have learned it. While I may not find what I read of use for teaching, it gives me valuable insight as to how we, as teachers, are perceived, and it shows me the thought-process going on while people are absorbing new skills.
I'm looking for that too, but not *only* that. The moment a worthwhile connect is made, PMs and emails give us all the opportunities we need to communicate, in private. A forum is by definition not a private place, at least one such as this.

I personally welcome questions or challenges from anyone, students also. If I feel, for any reason, that I am being asked for help with no appreciation for the time I give, I have the option of no longer replying.

Nor would you be 'interrupted' by anyone else, like parents or annoying pianists who might offer insights that disturb the holy temple of teaching.

Beautifully stated, and I agree completely, Gary.

The idea of kicking non-teachers off the teacher's forum was dealt with rather exhaustively not long ago, and if memory serves me correctly, I think pretty much everybody except Betty felt that excluding nonteachers was not a good idea in general (though there was sentiment expressed that a thread that was entitled or explicitly directed toward "teachers only" should be respected as such). I personally think making the entire forum for teachers only is a lousy idea and impractical to enforce, for all the reasons articulated here and in the earlier thread.

To the extent that nonteachers' opinions matter on this, I personally would also be opposed to Frank starting up a private forum for teachers only. As far as I know, there are no other such "private" forums here (other than one for moderators only, for the purpose of discussing pain in the butt posters ). I am troubled by the philosophical implications of a "private" sub-forum on an internet forum, as it seems antithetical to the entire notion of openness and transparency that is the hallmark of the internet.

Betty, you've been pretty vocal about your dissatisfactions with this forum. Perhaps you would like to set up a teachers-only forum of your own, or an email listserv? Then you would be able to run it exactly as you think it ought to be run.