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#943483 - 11/13/08 08:43 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Piano*Dad Offline
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Quote
I'd rather an additional 'Teachers and Student' forum for the two parties to interact.
... and perhaps also a "Teacher and Parent" forum

... and a "Teacher and Pianist" forum

... and a "Teacher and Adult Student" forum

... and a "Conservatory Teacher" forum

... and a "Conservatory Teachers teach non-conservatory Teachers How to Teach" forum

.... laugh


Somehow, just a plain 'ol Teachers Forum seems to catch it all, and more. Much more. Cosmopolitanism seems more conducive to creativity than compartmentalization.

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#943484 - 11/13/08 08:52 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Danny Niklas Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Quote
I'd rather an additional 'Teachers and Student' forum for the two parties to interact.
... and perhaps also a "Teacher and Parent" forum

... and a "Teacher and Pianist" forum

... and a "Teacher and Adult Student" forum

... and a "Conservatory Teacher" forum

... and a "Conservatory Teachers teach non-conservatory Teachers How to Teach" forum

.... laugh


Somehow, just a plain 'ol Teachers Forum seems to catch it all, and more. Much more. Cosmopolitanism seems more conducive to creativity than compartmentalization.
You hit the nail on the head.
How about a simple "Teaching Forum"?
After all even the description of the forum (discuss lesson plans, teaching techniques, etc), seems to suits a "Teachings Forum" more than a "Teachers Forum". It's about discussing teaching stuff not who teaches the teaching stuff.
As you point out the variations and shades could be infinite, "teaching" inglobes it all.

#943485 - 11/13/08 09:00 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Danny Niklas Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I can't think of many (if any) student contributions I've valued here but there have been plenty from teachers.
I think you might be too biased and preconceived to even recognize a good contribution from a student. I would do a boudle blind test where you must indicate contributions you value without knowing whether they come from teachers, students, children or guitarists. I bet you would suddenly choose many contributions that don't come from teachers. Besides you might as well failed to value many things that deserved to be valued. A lot of great ideas are rejected and ridiculed. Actually according to some, being rejected is the first stage of every great revolutionary idea.

#943486 - 11/13/08 10:10 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Quote
Originally posted by Danny Niklas:
Quote
[b]Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I can't think of many (if any) student contributions I've valued here but there have been plenty from teachers.
I think you might be too biased and preconceived to even recognize a good contribution from a student. I would do a boudle blind test where you must indicate contributions you value without knowing whether they come from teachers, students, children or guitarists. I bet you would suddenly choose many contributions that don't come from teachers. Besides you might as well failed to value many things that deserved to be valued. A lot of great ideas are rejected and ridiculed. Actually according to some, being rejected is the first stage of every great revolutionary idea. [/b]
Not to pick on kbk, but I would add that based on following this forum now for a while, what might be valued by one person one day might then be rejected by the same person the next, and sometimes all in the same thread. These subjective judgments have tended to shift over time (depending on whether you believe in that concept today) and/or follow the way the wind is blowing.

IMHO teachers who aren't open to listening to students or other (less experienced) teachers risk not learning themselves or not finding out how good or bad they really are.

#943487 - 11/13/08 10:13 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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I actually think that this is a pretty good teaching forum compared to some of the others out there where 95% of the threads seem to be devoted to contracts and locking students in a year in advance, student penalties for scheduling issues, setting and raising rates, moaning about terrible parents, lazy kids, etc. At least the piano and the learning process is mentioned if not detailed in a great many of the threads on this teaching forum.

#943488 - 11/13/08 10:52 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Quote
moaning about terrible parents, lazy kids, etc.
Here the terrible parents can counterattack!

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#943489 - 11/13/08 11:14 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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I chime in here occasionally when I think I have some experience/insight into a question. I don't teach piano, but I teach/have taught many other subjects, both in the classroom and one-on-one. (The idea that my teaching experience has no relevance if I don't teach piano *has* been floated in this forum, though, by one person. I don't agree, of course.)

But I agree with those who say - if you don't want to answer questions from students - don't. If a particular thread seems irrelevant to you, don't read it. I take those responsibilites on myself, and expect that others are mature enough to do so.

I agree with those who prefer this to be an open forum, as are all the forums here. We don't keep teachers out of the ABF, or beginners out of the piano forum, or non-classical questions out of the piano forum. Sometimes posters are referred to another forum if it seems they will get more responses there. Pretty much it's self-regulating, and I like that. I learn from many many people, not just those I might *think* I can learn from.

And I, too, will reiterate - even if this were closed to comments from others, it is *read* all over the world. Google your user name. If you don't want prospective students who are internet savvy to read what you have to say here, then don't say it here. If you want a non-public readable forum so you can say whatever you want without repercussions, and you want to regulate in some way I can't fathom who is on the forum, then you need a different vehicle than a teachers-only forum here. Perhaps, as someone suggested, a list-serve, or a yahoo group or something. Those options are available, but I like having PW as a group of open forums.

Thank you to all who have voiced support for open forums. We all learn from each other.

Cathy


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#943490 - 11/13/08 12:36 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Come on guys, we all know this is the best forum going. Don't mess with it.


Pianist and piano teacher.
#943491 - 11/13/08 05:16 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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I think everyone needs to relax a bit.......


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#943492 - 11/13/08 09:54 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Jotur, I'll own that thought. (The idea that my teaching experience has no relevance if I don't teach piano *has* been floated in this forum, though, by one person. I don't agree, of course.)

There are several teachers of other subjects in the forums, I'm sure. I know of some.

The problem is that the piano needs both a physical and mental stimulation from a human in order to be played. The study of touches, techniques, histories of composers, their lives and the era they lived in, the quality of their instruments, the person you are teaching as an entity in a private lesson, in half of an hour to an hour each week, is supposed to make progress by showing or demonstrating their ability to perform back (the "test") of what is covered in lessons.

A piano teacher teaches physical movement as well as thinking skills, time management for the task, priority setting, in detail how to practice suggestions, helps the student stay motivated, the list is long and unfinished here.

Just knowing about a subject does not a teacher of it make. Having some experience in teaching yourself you feel that you know how to teach someone piano. Chances are you don't. You can teach only to the place that you can play, and then the success of that is not guaranteed. It really isn't.

I am a fine piano teacher or I wouldn't have students study with me for 8 years, parents paying a half year lessons fee or a year's in advance. I would not have lasted for 38 years of teaching is I could not produce.

Exactly why do you choose to pick on my teaching, or on my thoughts, philosophies, or most things I express.

My most severe critics in PWF are 1) a math teacher, self taught pianist and other instruments, I believe, 2)a psychology teacher, self taught pianist, new age, 3) a teacher with 2 years experience in the class room and then a change of careers, self employed, studied a different instument, learning piano by self teaching. I'm sure you are happy in the way you have become musicians and in what you do musically.

What IS the problem please. I am so tired of receiving come-uppances from these adult piano students who think their classroom experiences in one subject matter, transfers to discussing the teaching of a musical instrument. And, another source of amazement to me, is, people who play piano but do not teach either at all, or not much, very as verbal in the teaching forum as they are.

When there is lots of posting from people other than piano teachers, it changes the slant, the contents, the objectives, the outcome of a topic in development. Diversion. Staying on topic becomes hard to do.

Misinformation that will possibly harm another beginner in piano because they don't know what is good information and what is not, are impacted.

I don't think new forums are the answer, I think that knowing who you are and what you can do as a musician is more important, and if you post as freely as if you were a piano teacher, you should ask yourself why you post here with most of your topics here being to provoke me and put me in my place.

I think the term "Piano Teachers Forum" should be explicit enough to show that primary usage is for piano teachers.

I've said it clearly. This is the problem that I have been having. I'm not proud of having this problem, but it is surely about time the problem stopped. It feels like harrassment, it must be harrassment.

As people have been saying, if you don't like it, don't read it. I don't think that works very well either.

Out of ideas.

Betty

#943493 - 11/13/08 10:27 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Wow, what a defensive blast! Who is the math teacher, I wonder? The Psychology teacher is obvious. laugh

Nobody is picking on you, Betty. This is not about you. Many of us simply disagree with your reasoning and your exclusionist viewpoint.

By my count, the number of teachers actively posting who would rather exclude non-teachers (however that is defined) seems to be a tiny minority. The rest think that such an exclusion would impoverish the forum itself and/or be impossible to implement as a practical matter.

Whether or not you are a fine teacher is immaterial. Insights can come from all quarters, and fine teachers usually have the intellectual curiosity to appreciate that.

Most threads here are NOT about the class of problems that involves the truly fine points of teaching the piano that ONLY a piano teacher would care about or have the requisite expertise to discuss. When such threads appear, guess who dominates the discussion? The teachers, of course. The rest of us simply ignore the thread entirely because it either holds no interest for us or we realize we have little or nothing to offer.

Now, if you are talking about the virtues or vices of having a parent in the room during lessons, a parent perspective might very well inform the discussion. I frankly don't understand why that is so difficult to appreciate.

This is not a private clubhouse on whose door you can tack a "parents stay out" sign. And as many teacher posters have argued, why would you want to?

#943494 - 11/13/08 10:40 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Monica K. Offline

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Quote
Originally posted by Piano World:
I could easily create a "teachers only" forum, which would require proving you are a teacher (of course, that would quickly become a slippery slope).

And, as a "private" forum, only approved members would be able to access or post there.

But...
First I question just how much it would be used, second I question why.

The reason I chose to leave the Teacher Forum public (as I did with the piano tuner-technicians) is BECAUSE I knew the general public would want to peek, and possibly participate.

And while they are at it, they just might learn something that will make them appreciate their teachers (and tuners) a little more.

And, their teachers might learn some things about how their students viewed their teaching, or what they might want, or what concerns them.

Sure, you have to put up with those annoying amateur questions occassionally, but guess what, they are your customers, and they want to learn too.

Now if enough of you really would like a private forum, let me know. But please keep in mind that the "public" sections of our forums are not just for the participants, but also for the "public" to learn.

With well over 1 million posts, we now come up in any number of searches on the major search engines. This means more people are finding us, and in turn, finding you.

And I hope, those who choose to stick around a while enjoy themselves, are inspired to own and learn to play piano, and have some fun!
Betty, what part of Frank's post did you not understand?

I hear your message that you do not want me, and other non-teachers, to post on this forum any more. You are one of the very few people on this forum, if not the only person, expressing that opinion. The vast majority of others voicing an opinion, including the *only* person whose opinion on this issue counts, and that is Frank Baxter, the founder of this forum, welcomes the contributions of non-teachers.

I'm sorry, Betty, but you don't get to decide who posts here or not. It's as simple as that.

[oops. Freudian slip edited out. wink ]


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#943495 - 11/13/08 11:07 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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jotur Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Wow, what a defensive blast! Who is the math teacher, I wonder? The Psychology teacher is obvious. laugh
Where is that "waving-your-hand-in-the-air" icon when you need it laugh

Also freshman composition, folkdancing, skiing, management and organizational behavior, introduction to business, Sunday school, et al. Some of which have physical components laugh All of which have critical thinking components. All of which have individual learning style components. And other components which, to me, are applicable to learning/teaching/playing piano.

Quote
Most threads here are NOT about the class of problems that involves the truly fine points of teaching the piano that ONLY a piano teacher would care about or have the requisite expertise to discuss. When such threads appear, guess who dominates the discussion? The teachers, of course. The rest of us simply ignore the thread entirely because it either holds no interest for us or we realize we have little or nothing to offer.[/QB]
I agree. I don't get in on the threads about fingering for scales, unless we get to the point where we point out that some fingering in a piece, even for scale-like passages, depends on what comes before and after the passage, sort of like running gates in a ski race smile

As far as I can tell, the subjects I have taught have components which are applicable to learning to play piano. IMHO, learning basic math for adults is every bit as much a life skill requiring commitment, organization, maturity, etc, as learning to play piano. I could be wrong, of course - I have been more than once in my life.

So, most of my comments in this forum are on things that I might have experience teaching in freshman composition, or lapses in logic, or a statement that not everyone learns the same way - often with myself as counterexample, or a statement of how I learned a particular skill. Others seem to be able to ignore my comments quite well if they don't seem relevant to them laugh

And no, I don't teach piano. I do, however, pass on to other piano players ways that I approach playing for dancing, or riffs I use in the left hand for accompaniment, or anything else they might learn by looking over my shoulder. And I learn a lot from other piano players the same way. Music is a community event for me.

Cathy


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#943496 - 11/13/08 11:57 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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currawong Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Wow, what a defensive blast! Who is the math teacher, I wonder?
I was wondering the same thing smile . Thanks for clearing that up, jotur.

But this seemed directed at me (or do I flatter myself?):
And, another source of amazement to me, is, people who play piano but do not teach either at all, or not much, very as verbal in the teaching forum as they are.

Well, Betty, if this is referring to me I'm sorry that you don't appreciate my contributions. But at least I've been a source of amazement smile . I wonder how many hours you need to teach per week to be a Real Teacher? Or for how many years? I know you've been teaching for 38 years. I may not have a large number of piano students at the moment, but I've actually been teaching piano pretty well continuously for 41 years. I haven't mentioned it before because, frankly, I didn't think it was necessarily all that relevant.

Let's get back to "creative exchange of ideas" and not stress so much about who is qualified to join in the exchange.


Du holde Kunst...
#943497 - 11/14/08 12:10 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Gary D. Online content
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Quote
Originally posted by currawong:
Let's get back to "creative exchange of ideas" and not stress so much about who is qualified to join in the exchange.
thumb
smile


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#943498 - 11/14/08 02:09 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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^ Could not agree more.

#943499 - 11/14/08 10:32 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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As I've said before, I don't typically post much because I don't have much free time (yes, too busy teaching piano!). I often feel guilty for just reading and not contributing more, but by the time I get here, others have already said whatever I might have.

Here, now, though, I must speak out. I am amazed at the recent uproar over who might be welcome (allowed?) to post. I feel this forum would be greatly diminished without the contributions of everyone. I have learned so much from students, parents, and non-teaching pianists (self-taught and otherwise). I think the input of people with experiences in other fields is invaluable, and I would greatly miss it if it went away. Please stay and contribute (and ask questions!) and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.


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#943500 - 11/14/08 11:31 AM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Quote
Originally posted by Monica K.:

[oops. Freudian slip edited out. wink ]
Darn. I missed the Betty Bloop.

#943501 - 11/14/08 12:07 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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I think that Betty is correct in saying that teaching piano correctly is a unique body/mind/endeavor, unlike anything else. It also includes ancillary teaching such as time management skills, keeping motivated skills, goal-setting, facing your insecurities, etc.

I have posted before that the only thing I can think of that is similar to teaching piano is teaching golf, in that a successful golf learning experince involves very similar body/mind control, and the ancillary skills touched on above. (perhaps being a surgeon is also very similar).

Therefore, having a gift of teaching, and knowing a bit of piano, does not make a qualified piano teacher.

I have been told many many times that I am a very good teacher...but I would never even think of taking what essentially are amateur golf skills and trying to teach golf, although I know I could bluff my way through for a while simply by using my teaching skills.

But I would misteach people, and/or leave out some small but important ingredient.

That is why, when I have a piano teaching question/problem, I want to hear from a well-qualified piano teacher. Sure, the opinions of others such as students and parents is potentially helpful, but I want to hear first and foremost from the experts.

Its like having a legal problem/question, and asking for advice from someone who's hobby is reading about law, or asking the parent of someone who reads about law, rather than asking a real practicing lawyer.

As for the forum, it should be left as is. The input from students and parents can be helpful and valuable, and often is very insightful, but I want to hear first from the working teachers.

And, trying to police the forum to exclude non-teachers is a big can of worms best left shut.


Piano teacher and Blues and Boogie-Woogie pianist.
#943502 - 11/14/08 01:20 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Just for the record.

I’m an adult student. A new and probably very poor self taught one.

I have never posted on this forum.

I don’t know anything really about piano teaching.

I am not an academic.

But

I feel very sorry for a minority of this forum who want to potentially lose insight, variation of viewpoint on subjects under discussion etc, etc. On the basis that another person doesn’t quite fit a predefined standard.

I don’t teach, I professionally tend to see humanity at it worse and have been a student of that behaviour for the last 25 years. Strangely the biggest lesson I ever learnt was not imparted by a peer, a theorist in my field or a psychologist.

It was “taught” to me by a previously unknown 11 year old girl. What she taught me I’ve valued in my professional and private life more than any other single insight over the last 10 years.

But hey, I could have not listened or shut the door in her face. She would not have been any the poorer for it.

I most certainly would have, and in total ignorance I wouldn’t have realised it.

Now, back off to the beginner’s forum.

#943503 - 11/14/08 01:23 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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#943504 - 11/14/08 01:27 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Quote
Originally posted by Blackbird:


It was “taught” to me by a previously unknown 11 year old girl. What she taught me I’ve valued in my professional and private life more than any other single insight over the last 10 years.

But hey, I could have not listened or shut the door in her face. She would not have been any the poorer for it.

I most certainly would have, and in total ignorance I wouldn’t have realised it.
I seem to have missed the bit where you say "and what she taught me was..."


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#943505 - 11/14/08 03:09 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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I certainly hope none of my posts come across as being "know it all" or trying to tell piano teachers how to teach.

I have said before that I did not have the greatest experience as a child piano student, and I hope that others might learn from what I went thru (parents, that it's important for a child to have good quality teaching and a good quality instrument; teachers, that not everyone is as good as you are and don't make assumptions about what your transfer student knows, even if they play relatively well).

Also, I am aware that someone who has been successful as a piano student, a piano performance or pedagogy major, and a piano teacher (which is, I am assuming, the path many of the teachers here took), might get some insight from someone from a very rural area who had poor instruction at first, was a music ed major, and is now a returning adult amateur and piano student. To be...I guess...a "friendly native guide" for teachers who are interested, into the world of rural students, or failed students, or adult students...

When, for instance, I posted on the 'befriending students' thread, it was to share my experience, which seems to differ greatly from the majority of teachers.

Also, in the interests of full disclosure, it is incredibly frustrating to hear people make pronouncements that "adult students are ___" "adults always ___" "adults never want ___" when these pronouncements are generally negative and, in my experience, pretty inaccurate. I'm not saying the teachers' own experiences are invalid, that would be a ridiculous thing to assert. I just want people who are thinking about teaching adults not to get turned off before they start.


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#943506 - 11/14/08 03:53 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Gary D. Online content
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Gary D.  Online Content
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Quote
Originally posted by Blackbird:
I think that Betty is correct in saying that teaching piano correctly is a unique body/mind/endeavor, unlike anything else. It also includes ancillary teaching such as time management skills, keeping motivated skills, goal-setting, facing your insecurities, etc.
I think that is a reasonable statement.
Quote

Therefore, having a gift of teaching, and knowing a bit of piano, does not make a qualified piano teacher.
I don't think anyone said it does.
Quote

That is why, when I have a piano teaching question/problem, I want to hear from a well-qualified piano teacher. Sure, the opinions of others such as students and parents is potentially helpful, but I want to hear first and foremost from the experts.
I want to hear from people who can give me answers. There are questions that can only be answered by other teachers. However, others are answered better by students.

It depends on the question…


Piano Teacher
#943507 - 11/14/08 05:24 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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rocket88 Offline
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Just for the record, Gary, you quoted me, not Blackbird.


Piano teacher and Blues and Boogie-Woogie pianist.
#943508 - 11/14/08 05:28 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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rocket88 Offline
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Gary, I am not trying to pick a fight, but am interested in what questions about teaching are better answered by students rather than teachers. Could you give some examples?


Piano teacher and Blues and Boogie-Woogie pianist.
#943509 - 11/14/08 05:49 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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theJourney Offline
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I can:

- How do you find the time and structure to practice with focus and concentration at the beginning or end of busy work day with other family responsibilities?

- How are lessons every two weeks instead of every week better for some adult students?

- How can you best communicate to your teacher what you want/need to learn in a given lesson and keep the dialog positive and constructive versus judgmental and fault finding?

- How can you tailor your interview with a new teacher to get a fair evaluation of their abilities and the potential match between you two?

- How can you work out ways to learn the "invisible" and that which "only can be felt or experienced" from a teacher relationship which is principally verbal or auditive?

- In your personal experience, what parts of learning the piano are best left unquestioned in a "grasshopper" Zen master relationship style and on what aspects can a student take more of the lead?

etc.

#943510 - 11/14/08 05:56 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Danny Niklas Offline
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You're overcomplicating and overnanalyzing the whole issue. Arguments stand by their own merits not by the credentials or labels or those who promote them. Anyone might have a valid argument about teaching or teaching methods in spite of who he/she is, and teachers can often learn from non-teachers. I can't think of anything more irrational than judging what makes sense and what doesn't, by the identity of the writer. You never know where insight might come from the next time, you can only be confident that you'll recognize it when you see it.

#943511 - 11/14/08 06:02 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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theJourney Offline
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Not true. If this were true no one would have believed the ridiculous and vacuous presentation which Colin Powell gave to the security council and hundreds of thousands of innocent people would still be alive. But, because of his position, his "arguments" were believed.

It is irrational to believe that we can separate rationality from more emotional, subjective and personal factors. The identity of the person or institute making an argument is an implicit part of evaluating the argument in many or most settings. Someone's reputation is shorthand enabling our ability to make integrative and timely judgments. Human beings are not merely symbolic logic executing automatons.

#943512 - 11/14/08 06:16 PM Re: What happened creative exchange of ideas here?  
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Danny Niklas Offline
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It's a common habit in our society, but that doesn't make it less irrational. I'm not an automaton, and actually I don't believe in inhibiting spontaneity. And yet it is natural for me to judge a person for his/her true merits and not irrelevant factors related to social stereotypes, limiting labels, fictional status quo and other bad ways to lump people together and create fake categories.

To judge the identity of the writer/speker instead of his argument might lead to believe him arbitrarily even when you shouldn't, or not believe him arbitrarily even when you should.
A fallacious argument doesn't become less fallacious when you find out its promoter is a professional and viceversa a valid argument doesn't become less valid when you find out its promoter is an amateur. At least, this is how it should work.

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