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Some friends at school are putting together a program for a local community theater and asked me if I would fill in for their pianist. Apparently she has some family thing and cannot be there for some performances. I have not seen the full program but it does not sound too challenging. The piano parts are in the beginning (Beethoven moonlight and a Mozart piece (a mvt from K547?) were planned but apparently I can substitute another piece if I want to) and some accompaniment to one song.. The program itself is a mix of "high school talents" and includes a short act from a piece of theater and some instrumentalists. This is a small low key event with money raised for a local youth group.
I am tempted to say yes because I have never before played in teh absence of my teacher and though it sounds weird, I almost want to see how I do BEFORE the teacher's recital which terrorizes me still (end of august now).. The question is do you think he would want to know that I am interested / want to do this?
I have resumed lessons as I said in the monster thread. My first "comeback" lesson was today and it went for almost 2 hours. It was painful and productive. But I had worse expectations.. so not too bad I guess. I will be back on Thursday with a lot to do in the interim.
I obviously do not want to rock the boat again and would rather "lay low" for a while so I am tempted not to say anything.. I know none of you can read the mind of a person you don't know, but some of the teachers-and others- here were right on, when predicting his responses.. I guess my real question is how bad would it be if I don't involve him and he finds out?
Thanks again

Well, I didn't read the "monster" thread, and judging by the size of it, I probably won't - so I can't really comment as to what your teacher may think or if you should mention it to him/her.

But I personally think this sounds like a fantastic opportunity for you. It sounds like the pieces involved are not too difficult, and the event is fairly "low-key", so it sounds like this would be the perfect opportunity for you to get a little experience performing as an accompanist and performing in front of an audience.

I'd go for it!

Elise,

I'm so glad your "Auntie Betty" heard about this! Dear, if you are concerned about it and can imagine a bad scene because of it, perhaps you should being it to his attention for some advice. You obviously have had this thought run through your mind already.

Yes, it does "sound like this would be the perfect opportunity for you to get a little experience performing as an accompanist and performing in front of an audience."

But, perhaps he sees it as interferance with your preparations for piano lessons and your work in music together. And, you....see it as opportunity.

Opportunity is also the Chinese symbol for crisis I have heard.

Betty
Thanks. DO you students tell you about similar things/ do you expect them to?
This has not come up before for me, so I am not sure what a teacher's expectations might be..

And Zen is also the chinese symbol for knickers!

If you think he'll find out, tell him it's only accompanying pop songs. He'll frown and move on. In fact, considering the kind of relationship you've got going there, you'll have to get used to telling loads of porkies (porky pie).

Well, considering the plans your teacher has this summer of really pushing you ahead and increasing the work you'll be doing, is there a chance that preparing for this even will impact the time you'll have to prepare for your lessons? Can it impact the quality of what you'll produce for your teacher?

Given the situation of your teacher, if you go for this then you must keep the things for lessons as your priority, and you have to be able to discipline yourself for a lot of focussed piano practice. You'd have to be able to predict how much work it would take. Do you know exactly what your part of the program would be?

Instead of telling your teacher, should you ask and defer to his advice of whether you should go for this? That is, if you decide to discuss it with him rather than sneakiness (sneakiness would not be my preferred option).

There was a thread a while back where teachers' feelings on outside performances were discussed. The teachers who wanted to be involved named a couple of reasons that those of us at the non-teacher end had not thought about.

It does sound lovely otherwise. I think I'd opt to first assess if I could fit it in without compromise lesson material, secondly discuss with teacher before committing, third make really sure I can handle the work load before committing (it is summer after all).

I agree with Keystring and would like to bring a slightly different prospective.

A big problem with the teacher is that he became a lesser level of commitment that he seemed to consider due. The new "relationship" with the teacher implies a higher level of commitment.

This means, in my eyes, that:

1) the more you practice what your teacher says as opposed to "other things", the more this will lessen any misunderstanding between the two of you;

2) as you are aware of the fact that the lessons with him are very productive, the hours that the new project may require (I am guessing here: 10? 20? 30? 50?) would be more profitably invested in practicing according to the guidance of the old chap.

The only advantage that I see in the new initiative is, as you say, the possibility to have an "external feedback" of your playing; frankly, I do not think this is an important issue. Everything that you have written up to now speaks of a very serious teacher which gives you a very strict and qualified teaching, I'd say that "quality issues" should be the last of your concerns here, it is obvious to me that you are on your way to excellence without having to look for any confirmation from a "low profile" event.

The little confrontation with the teacher has brought you some strain, and the relationship with the teacher is certainly an issue in your general quality of life. If I were in your shoes, I would maximise the commitment that I can give to the piano lessons and to the teacher without looking left or right, knowing that this will give me the most out of the relationship of my teacher; the most out of my piano practice; and a better quality of life in general (less issues with the teacher; less fear of the recital because of increased practice time, etc.).

If you invest 20 or 30 hours on this, comes August you might regret not having used the time to better prepare your recital; if your teacher knew that you are dispersing energies on other pastures, he will wonder whether this is an addition to the level of commitment he desires, or took some time out of it; and yes, I do not think that he would approve of this in any way...


Just my two cents.

I think the question to ask yourself is, "Why would you want to conceal the performance from your teacher?"

On one hand, what you do outside your piano lessons is no one's concern but your own. I can't imagine your teacher would object, but then again, there's no way to predict how he would react. Has he expressed any previous opinion that he didn't want you performing (when he's not around)? Does he have an objection to you playing or learning pieces without his supervision? If so, perhaps its best to be honest about the performance. If he finds out, I think he'll likely feel either hurt or deceived. Given recent events, I think an accidental discovery of your performance would put an unwanted strain on the relationship, which I get the impression would be characterized as 'delicate,' at the current moment.

I could be wrong on this, but its something to consider.

Thanks for the input. I actually did not think that participation in that event would require too much time commitment. I already have a whole bunch of memorized "polished" pieces that I can choose to play from (the program is not rigid). the only new bit would be the accompaniment but it is a short song. The reason I am interested is not for 'quality' control as much as a way to boost my confidence and, yes, experiencing "piano" minus Him, or in a friendlier environment.
I also think this should be my business not necessarily his, but then again I do not know if anything piano has to be "run" by him first.which is why I wondered if other teachers expect that such events are also their business.. I will ty to search for that discussion that KS mentioned..I don't want to be sneaky but I also do not have an easy communication channel with him so I cannot simply ask.
I do not have previous exerience with similar questions coming up in the past.

It has been my experience that events like this are usually way more time-consuming than they let on. Not only are you talking about rehearsal time, but you also need practice time to learn the music ahead of time (unless you're an excellent sight-reader, and even then, you wouldn't want to side-read something when you could have prepared it). Considering you have already made a commitment for a recital in August about which you seem concerned, I would strongly recommend against this 'opportunity'. They are a dime a dozen, and so you can let them know that while now is not a good time for you, to let you know in the future of other opportunities as you would like to help out. In general, I think it would be a great experience for you, but the timing may not be the best right now.

Elise - My gut tells me that it is good for you to know that this kind of opportunity exists because now you can imagine other worlds. You are already a good pianist, and that door will always be open to you.

However, this would be very bad timing. To be honest, I would stay away from this one and remain totally focussed on the goals in the studio. You want to put your all into this, because your growth this summer as well as the relationship later in your lessons are an investment you're doing now.

I've rehearsed in amateur choirs as a singer, stepping up my choirs over the year but it's remained a frustrating experience. Everything drags out - Something you have mastered at home becomes the subject of three hour-long rehearsals and still is forgotten. The accompanist becomes a conductor-in-disguise highlighting the altos here, banging out the tempo there without appearing to bang out the tempo - sometimes getting a glare from the conductor for her efforts. Well this event may be different, but expect that things may go much longer than you expect in rehearsals.

From that thread, we know that teachers do feel they have a role and they give reason for it. There was a fair amount of misunderstanding among non-teachers when it first came up.

Elise asked: (Betty) DO you students tell you about similar things/ do you expect them to?
This has not come up before for me, so I am not sure what a teacher's expectations might be.

To the ones who play well and are at the age where accompanying may come into the picture, chiefly becuase they are in junior high/middle school or high school, I always let them know these are wonderful things to do as a contribution, and they will learn a lot from the experience. However, if it's an all year responsibility such as jazz ensembles, or school choir, I warn them their ability to prepare their piano lessons and even their academic preparations in homework will - could suffer when the accompanying takes priority in your life. It has to at several times during the year when the music is being prepared for concerts, or for festivals which are graded.

I don't interfere with their decisions as I know this is a huge step to take for a pianist. The kids I've had who play accompaniment for band, or choral, or solo festivals are usually very mature, responsible, organized, and see it through with their best effort kind of student.

Something does slip though, when you add something new to the mix. There are pros and cons to both "Yes" and "No".

Once in the role they have chosen, they rarely bring anything back for me to check out or help with. I do hear about special events and things that happened that were exciting or special. They have good things to say about their involvement.

I don't consider it a competition between piano lessons or the accompaniment, when another music teacher enters they get a bigger, broader idea of what being a music teacher is like.

Yes, the lessons become less intense and I see a tendency to stay on a practice concept for a longer time then previously. But, there also are benefits that surface, too.

For a piano teacher who has deadline, events planned, competitions, musical goals planned for the student, the idea of delay due to any reason is something to assert control over.

Good question, answered from my experiences.

Betty

Elise: the question of teacher involvement in outside performances was discussed by teachers and students here: performance question

Betty: I'm trying to reconcile what you say here with what you wrote in the Speechless thread, where it mattered very much that you be asked and have the final say. It seemed very important.

Yes, Keystring, it is important.

It's not that I have the final say, it's that I have an opportunity to contribute my opinion and caution or clear it.

Because of the overload that happens sometimes. SOme are very enthusiastic to do these things, but are not ready to be an asset to the group without more skill.

With Elise, the caution is her overload, and the way her teacher would feel about it.

I always tell my students that I want to know what their extracurricular activities are.

I had a wonderful student who's father and mother were very gung ho soccer - playing on two teams - one recreational department and one high school. The piano lessons went to heck.

Swimmers have a hard time playing piano after a meet or practice. As do ice hockey kids.

I want to know. Sometimes I caution heavily and predict the beginning of the end of piano lessons.

Betty

The thread keystring linked was the follow-up to the first, large thread that raised this issue:

the speechless thread

It's worth reading simply to see the diversity, and vehemence, of opinions expressed.

Elise, I think it is terrific you are interested in this performance opportunity. My personal opinion is that it is a good thing to take advantage of opportunities to play for others. I also see some symbolic importance in this particular situation, as it allows you an opportunity to pursue your love for piano as an autonomous individual in a setting separate from your lessons.

However, given the reaction of some of the teachers on the speechless thread, I would not suggest concealing the performance from your teacher. Instead, after you have given yourself a couple of lessons to get settled back in lessons, just tell your teacher casually at the end of a lesson that "by the way" you will be playing in an informal setting. If he then expresses any concerns about it detracting from your "serious" piano work, simply explain it as you have to us. I personally would not ask permission, but if you read the speechless thread, you'll see that I came down hard on the side of the student's right to play when and wherever he/she wanted to.

Betty, the thread itself held an impression of final say. I'm glad you cleared that up, and what you say is absolutely reasonable.

The Performance Question contains explanations by teachers such as John, Morodienne, Tenuto and AZNpiano as a contribution of their thoughts on the matter. It was created during your absence and is a treasure trove of insight, a resource. Have you had a chance to read it? What you have written here would probably enrich the insights.

Uhh. I have one word, one comment, a conclusion and a song to describe these threads:

- the word is: omigod!
- the comment is a reprise: "Piano teachers get away with EVERYTHING!!!
- conclusion: I better ask Him
- the song: Avril Lavigne: why do you have to go and make things so complicated? (not addressed to anyone specifically)

Hi, Elise. All the caveats about your teacher thinking that his assignments might fare poorly if you decide to do this notwithstanding, there is a chance that he will recognize the value for you of doing this, too. Most pianists are not destined for solo careers at Carnegie Hall. In fact, professional pianists really need to have good accompanying skills for a well-rounded musical life, especially where paying the rent is concerned. Thus, if you have not done any accompanying work yet, it's entirely possible he will see that this gig can help you begin to develop some important skills, and he just might be thrilled you have been given the opportunity. FWIW as a former singer, I can tell you that some of the finest "concert" pianists make truly lousy accompanists, as they have not been trained in any of the necessary ensemble skills. If your teacher is even moderately savvy about the reality of life as a piano player, he will probably know this and, with luck, he will acknowledge it and be happy that you are exhibiting interest in broadening your skills.

p.s. I had a similar opportunity my senior year in high school - the production was a semester project for one of the musical theater classes - and they asked me to accompany although I was not in their class. It was a load of fun for me and I developed some important skills as a result.

You poor thing - You actually slogged through the GreatMeltdown? However, did you manage to see the smaller thread with the more reasoned discussion?

All these teachers and adults don't matter: It's you, your teacher, and the events of this summer. What's happening there?

You're giving it a go with your teacher, and you're doing that after you realize what you value. You want to progress on the piano in a serious manner, and you also want to establish yourself differently. The key is your practicing and what that will show, as well as what you will be able to do (for you). You also have a recital coming up. We know that before you had this probation situation your teacher really wanted to grab this summer to push you to new heights.

If you've chosen to stay with your teacher, and you have to weigh priorities, the work with your teacher has to come first - it cannot suffer. Is it the kind that you have to pour 100% of your time and effort into, or do you have time left over.

Do you know enough about this other event that you can assess and plan out your time? Do you risk being watered down or scattered? Before you even approach your teacher if you decide you want to participate, you have to have thought this through yourself. If this were my teacher, he would be asking me "How do you plan to handle both events in such a way that your work with me will not suffer? Which is your priority?"

If you know your priorities and have looked at what's involved the decision might be easier. Best.

Elise, don't be misled into believing that it's about "establishing priorities" as if developing accompanying skills is something your teacher plans to forbid. You don't know that he would view "his work" as suffering if you broaden your skills (note this is NOT "watering down") by doing some accompanying. The only way you can know what he thinks is to ask him. He will quite possibly be supportive of this, rather than feeling hostile about it. Don't let anyone, who thinks they know what's best for you, stop you from inquiring about this opportunity if it's something you are interested in doing.