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Crystalcolors:

Here is a link to a video demonstrating jumping jacks:

http://beauty.expertvillage.com/videos/aerobics-video-jumping-jack.htm

Rich

Crystalcolors,


The video of the jumping jacks is a good demonstration, thanks, DragonPianoPlayer for supplying that! It would be better to start her off laying with her back on the floor (be there with her demonstrating - her little friend would probably have fun doing this together) the movements should not be done so fast as the video. She may have balance problems at first and fall. Everything you try physically should be done in the safest way possible until you find her capacities and limitations.

The reason I suggest doing jumping jacks like "Angels in the Snow" is there is a development problem called midline ________ (next word is escaping me)/ It's an impediment of messages getting to the other side of the body. Maybe someone else is more familiar with this. I haven't thought about it recently.

It's good that her mother is your friend - I really think this young lady can be fulfilled in finding herself as well as music.

Crystal, if you can print the postings written here on paper, by saving in a MSW document first and "printing" on the computer/printer, you will have a "little book" to study and cross out or highlight ideas, and get your thoughts organized. Then you can edit the material you want to remove and keep the ideas you want to work with over time. This is quite an abundant response of enlightened ideas.

PS. (Off Topic) It was me in Ontario in 1975-80 which was on Lake Ontario. You are more south beyond Syracuse? Are the Syracuse "Blue Blades" still sponsored by Gillette Razor Blade company, do you know? They were one mighty band when we saw them.

Good luck!

Betty

I have to ask you: Are you my daughter's teacher? I'm joking and I know you're not, because she eventually got over her rhythm issues, but they interfered with dance, cheerleading and, eventually, piano. Does your student get incredibly grouchy and snap when she doesn't want to do something? Are tears frequent?

My daughter still does that to the point that I have to go in the lessons with her to keep her in line. She was diagnosed with general anxiety disorder. She has that low self-esteem thing going, too. For instance, she will say, "I can't!" or "It hurts my hands!" immediately after being told to try something new, and she breaks down, in tears. It takes me growling, "JUST TRY IT! YOU CAN DO IT!" and she can. She does it perfectly her second try.

My daughter is coming along, with me being persistent. Hang in there. I'm not a teacher because I knew I couldn't teach my daughter, but I know it does get better. I thought, maybe, she wouldn't get hateful with someone other than me. I was wrong. I just give her "the look" and growl and it seems to stop it, though.

I kept thinking, "Do I have to beat the rhythm into her head?" I know that sounds brutal, but I was almost willing to take drastic measures to get her to feel the beat. She rushes, too, but I think that's normal for kids, isn't it? She straightened out her rushing problem on the last recital.

I think what finally helped is that my daughter was made to count while she played - ALL THE TIME. Her teacher made her do it, I counted out loud and stomped with the beat. Now she can count and figure things out.

Let me know how it goes. I know it can be frustrating because I'm on the parent-side and it's frustrating to me.

Amy

Thank you, Dragon, for the Jumping Jack info. Sounds like a fun thing to try.
And thanks, Betty, for suggesting to print this all. I just did it. There are many valuable info and suggestions which will be helpful in the future. Appreciate it, everyone!

Binghamton is about an hour and half south of Syracuse. We just moved to NY 2 years ago, so we aren't familiar with many things just yet. I don't know anything about Blue Blaze, but we'll eventually find out! We love NY so far. It's a beautiful place, with beautiful people.

Today, we had a Xmas program at our church. During the children's story, the girl in question, my student, was chosen to read the Bible, and she did a marvelous job reading the verses! She not only read it smoothly, but in a good, calm tone. So then I got to thinking, if I can make some picture rolls for children, I can have her read them to the littler ones. I've been thinking about making picture rolls for a long time, but never got around to it. I think she'll do well. That will make her feel special, and it can be a beginning of some kind of talent in "narrating" of sort. Piano is not for everybody, but everybody has some kind of talent, and it is important to find what that talent is in a child.

Back to Amy's mail. I'm glad that your daughter is improving! That is encouraging. My student does have some temper tantrum problem, according to her adoptive mother, though I haven't seen her throwing one yet. She behaves fairly well during the lesson. She used to talk back, but ever since I told her that she wouldn't need a teacher if she thought she knew everything, she has been pretty well behaved. I haven't seen a tear yet so far. But when she's corrected, she gets visibly frustrated.

I do make her count while she plays, and I count along too. Often I clap while she plays, and I make her clap too, but none helped so far. I tried duet with her, but that, too, was a disaster. Not just the tempo, but her counting the beat was way off. She doesn't seem to be able to "hear" my accompaniment, or anything else. Many children have rhythm problems, but they can at least "hear" and eventually learn to count right. You really can't "pound" it in her head when she can't even hear it. I mean, her ears are perfectly normal, but... you know what I mean. When it comes to rhythm, she is deaf.

So I'm going to try some of the things that were suggested here, and see how it will help her. I wish you good luck with your daughter. I'm sure she'll do very well!

"Practice makes progress, now get marching!"

Welcome!

You have heard of a lot of good ideas to treat and reasons possibly why this is ocurring.

I have to say by scanning all the posts, I have to agree with Betty's first post. Especially since it is diagnosed that she has some emotional issues.

I feel it is a lot deeper than trying to have her march in 4/4 or waltz in 3/4.

Hmmm.... She needs to be happy and be able to know herself and accept herself a little more, then she will find her inner rhythm.

I wonder how, as a piano teacher would you go about this?

I would not do, with all respect, anything acadamia to resolve this issue, like I said I think it is deeper than this.

I like that picture, rintincop!

Yes, pianobuff, that's the very thing I'm racking my brain. Within the 45 minutes lesson time (that's my standard time for beginners, and it flies away just like that!), what can be done?
She is eager to touch the piano, so I'm not going to take that away from her. But then comes the brain-numbing rhythm issue, and we can't move forward or backward. I do realize that her problem must be treated as a person, not as a piano student.

As Betty have suggested, I may do some singing with her. (Gee, I hope she's not tone deaf! Her adoptive mother is, and that's the scary part.)

Her personality is rather extroverted, she likes to show off, she likes to go up front, loves attention, etc. She's generally pretty cheerful and talkative. She's not shy at all either. She goes right up to make friends with new children, not afraid of adults either.
The reason why she wanted to learn piano is because she'd seen other girls her age (my students) play the piano up front at the church and receive lots of compliments from people. She wanted the same spotlight. At this point, no one knows, not even she, if she really loves music and that's why she's taking lessons.

But if spotlight is what she really needs and wants, then I think I can find something else for her, which she may do much better than piano, to build her confidence. I think she's struggling to find something that she can be proud of and establish her confidence on. Unfortunately, her talent in music falls short; it's giving her challenge, instead, which is the last thing she wanted.

I'm going to try to make the lessons as fun, simple, and enjoyable as I can, and give her lots of encouragement, and do a little games that might help her with rhythm, as many people have suggested here.

Also, I have a notebook for her to write whatever she wants, and I respond to her each week. She's pretty open about how she feels. So I hope something will come of it. I have suggested to her mother to play Mozart music quietly at home to soothe her emotions.

I am receiving another brand new student tomorrow, an 8-yr-old boy, who is mentally challenged. I have talked to this boy once before, and I know he can carry conversations. I don't know if his learning ability is up to the standard, though.
I may need you guys' help again. These children, who have been abandoned by their own parents (I have 3 such students), really need music, and my heart goes out to them. I wish I were better trained to meet these special children's special needs!

Good for you Crystalcolors!

First of all, for accepting and working with students with special learning problems - there is such a variety of them!

And, for bringing up your situations, questions and concerns, you will be helping us learn and research for more information right along with you, which increases everyone's knowledge.

I had a mentor, Muriel Carnes, who was an associate of mine in my local chapter of MTNA in the 1980's, she had group classes for the study of music history for fellow teachers - there were about 8 of us, and it was an 8-9 month study program. Muriel passed away soon after, and I've always been grateful that we had that year together, the group of us.

One of her major philosophies was "Every one deserves the opportunity to learn to make music." She followed this with: "You take them from where they are and do the best you can - they are capable and can express music in some meaningful way."

Keep us updated!

Betty

Wow! lots of fabulous ideas (as always). I agree that is a pretty common issue.

As for the question of would you let her pass even if she didn't play it right on?
I bet we all come ask that from time to time. I personally keep several different books of each level on hand (garage sales, ex-student donations, half.com, used book stores) for that very reason. Rather than have the student know that she's repeating (and feeling bad about it) I give her 2 of the same level books to pick something out of. Different versions (Indian, christian, jazz etc OR different methods Alfred, Bastien...)She feels like she's in control, we are going over the same info, and we both leave happy!

Thank you all for your encouragement and support! I have good news to report to you. Today, she came to the lesson with a very possitive attitude (she's usually positive and upbeat when she comes). And she surprised me by saying, "I've been marching at home with Sousa's music, and I love it!!!!" And then she said, "I've been listening to Mozart too, and I love it too!!!" Wow!

When we did the Sousa march last week, she didn't like it, so I thought I'd never do it again until she's ready, but it seems that she enjoyed it, so I may do it again. Of course, her feet won't be following the beat, but so what. By listening, she'll hear the beat (I hope!) and eventually she'll learn. March is something we all did during our elementary and academic years. Whether you know what you're doing or not, you march along with everyone else. She's never done marching before. I don't know what they do at schools nowadays, but some kids just don't have the opportunity to get acquainted with music! (She didn't even know the song,"10 Little Indians"!!!!!)

By the way, she is tone-deaf. I just found out today. xxxxxx

During the lesson, she played the old Bastien Primer A book, the pieces that she'd learned with my non-pianist friend. Her rhythm was again not very good, so I tried Betty's Quater Quarter Half-note thing, and walla! it worked!
Well, it wasn't perfect, but big improvement. So I let her pass all the pieces, and she was very happy. Thanks, Betty, for fabulous idea!

She was also very eager to get to that notebook to write a message to me. I haven't read it yet, but I'm eager to read it.

We did some rhythm games at the end of the lesson, with 2 other students. She was lost, but I taught her mother how to do it, so I'm sure she'll learn it during the week with her mom.

Yes, Ebony, that's a good idea to let them play different books. All my students have 2-5 different books, but this girl didn't seem to be ready, so I didn't give her extra book. Once she gets rolling, I'll give her another book to try.

I'm going to try various things to see what works best for her. Each child is different, so there's got to be something that works for her.
Thanks everyone, for all those great ideas and suggestions!

I'm going to post a new topic, children with mental challenge. I need your help again!

Merry Christmas!

I am very

How did you find out that she is tone-deaf? I don't know what you understand by the term, but I would have thought tone-deaf means the inability to distinguish between different pitches - ie, on hearing two notes in succession, a truly tone-deaf person would be unable to tell if they were the same or different. I think that this condition is extremely rare. I myself have never met anyone with it. I have however come across plenty of kids who don't sing in tune, for many reasons. Sometimes people describe this as "tone-deaf" but it isn't. Teaching kids to find their voices and sing in tune is a whole other topic

Hi, currawong!
It is possible that I may not using the term accurately. Perhaps you can help me define more clearly.

In her adoptive mother's case, she stays on the same note the whole time, for the entire song. No up or down, just one horizontal line. She can't tell the pitch or note difference. Period.

This girl's case is very similar, meaning most of the time she stays on the same note. but she does go up and down, except that she's way off. It is more than just not being able to carry a tune.

It's not common to come across people with this sort of problem, but I have met several people of this kind. (I used to direct different choirs)

So is this called tone-deaf, or something else?

Crystal Colors,

I'm so glad to hear she is responding and enjoying the lesson more - Sousa and Mozart - great choices.

How did you determine "tone deaf"? Perhaps it is because of her tightness overall that she has not discovered her vocal apparatus for singing and has no ability or experience to pitch notes.

These suggestions take place over time - a month or two - in small segments - I believe if you will expose her to:
1) a one note sound to pitch too, and,
2) pitch, moving up one tone and back, then,
3)pitch, up, back to pitch,and down, and,
back to pitch would be good vocal preparation for her.

My counting system does not include "Quarter - Quarter". Mine is the one with;
TA = (quarter note) (One clap)
ti-ti = (2 eighth notes) (Two claps on one beat)
Half Note = (half note) (Two claps of TA)
Half Note Dot - (dotted half note) (Three claps)
Whole Note = Hold that whole note (4 claps of TA)

dotted ti, 1/16 note = (LONG-short)(Complete on one clap of TA)

dotted quarter, 1/8 note = (TA-i)(One clap of TA, one quick clap of "i". (You might prefer to say TA-ti)

You are helping us think about an important subject! I see that you are working with several with learning differences children.

One thing happened when one of my students was about 9 years old, her mother took her for riding lessons one summer - the child was previously arythmic since her first lesson at age 6. Immediately her responses changed, improved, and she could make steady beats and count accurately for the first time. She is now 13 and a 7th year of study pianist, and a percussionist at middle school, hoping to become a music education teacher.

There are applications outside of music that help the kids overcome challenges, or to improve upon responses.

What else keeps a steady beat? This things can be noticed: Windshield wipers, telephones (the "old" kind), minute hands of the clock, a dripping faucet. Etc. But the horse affects full body motion and brain. It would have to be done with safety factors, and the child would have to be willing. Perhaps even one time would make a difference.

Everybody, keep thinking, what will potentially help these children?

Betty

Hi Crystal,

Just wanted to chime in with the "quarter quarter half note thing." Pretty sure it was me who mentioned that in an earlier comment, but I didn't give appropriate credit. I learned this way of counting from a workshop by Mary Gae George. She and her late husband, Jon George, created the series Artistry at the Piano. You might want to check out Mary Gae's books and I believe she also has videos. She teaches rhythm using her entire body...very fun way to learn. Betty's system seems quite similar.

I'm glad you had a walla! moment using this idea with your student. I'll never forget the first time I tried it and could positively feel the magic in the room. And the best part was that the student could feel the energy too.

Betty...I love your story about riding lessons. That's a great idea!

One other thought about teaching rhythm...Kids like the telephone game, where each child has a rhythm card everyone can see. The teacher begins by "calling" someone's card and that student "calls" another card. They love this! You can also do this with one student by simply "calling" a measure in the music and seeing if they can find it.

This is a great thread. Please, everyone, share more ideas.

My daughter got better when she started riding horses, too, now that I think about it. Good thoughts, everyone!

Oops! Sorry, Clara, I got confused. Yes, your method worked well. Even her mother noticed the difference. Thank you so very much! I'll check out Mary Gae videos. I was thinking of getting some kind of rhythm game video, but didn't know which one to get. Thanks for your recommendation.

And yes, I was thinking what I'll do to teach her 8th notes in the future, but Betty's idea will probably help her. I have learned how to count in my own language, but teaching my students in my language will probably make things more confusing! I need to learn more English! I am learning a lot, you guys!

Horse back riding is a wonderful idea! Outgoing as she is, she'll probably get excited about the idea. (Whether she's brave enough to get on the animal for real is another story, though) I don't know if her mom will be apt to it or not, especially if it involves a lot of $$. But I will suggest it to her anyway.

And thanks, Betty, for your advice on vocal training. You know, that's what I was thinking. She doesn't seem to have been exposed to music in the past (I really don't know much about her background, so I'm just guessing), and she's mentally physically not awaken to music yet. It seems impossible not to be exposed, though, because music is everywhere (restaurants, stores, schools, TV...); even if you don't want to hear, it's there. And the next thing you know, you're singing along. I am discovering that not all people absorb what they hear.

Let me ask you a question. In America, in public schools, do they teach music to all students? I don't mean bands and stuff that you have to sign up for. I'm talking about mandatory music classes starting grade 1 to teach them basics. It's probably different from school district to school district, but in general, what do they do for music education? Is every student given the opportunity to learn the basics? Or at least learn songs?

Crystalcolors,

I appreciate all that I'm reading in your topic, great postings everyone! Off to a great start!

I want to remind you that anything you try that does not work well today needs to come back up again at a later date. Don't dismiss anything - it's time may still come.

I would suggest that you write everything you are doing down - you have a good base here with your Piano Forum postings.

And, just coming to mind as I type, is the use of a videocamera - to show this young lady herself at the piano - playing something. She needs to see her whole body, and then focus on her upper torso, arms, close up of hand, and finally when she smiles, get that on camera.
I don't know if you feel comfortable doing that or not, but it should build self-awareness for her. She may not have a picture of herself.

A mirror placed for viewing from the side, might help. You know her best. Or, a small hand mirror for her to look at her face when she is happy related to making music. A photo?

I don't know how you would want to do it, but you have the idea.

Also, you might have a chart for each individual student where they paste in a star for their attendance. They could have another chart at home that shows they practiced...doesn't have to have all the dates and minutes and stuff, just a collection place to show piano time. Maybe a piece of blank manuscript paper where a musical sticker gets pasted on it.

And, I have e-mailed with Mary Gae George several times, from December 6th, 2006 thru June 2007, she is a delightful person. I very much appreciated her interest and concern about questions I asked her.

If you simply - not long - tell her how many students you are working with who have learning challenges, she may respond with some ideas for you.

Mary Gae George, NCTM
www.ArtistryAlliance.net
mg@ArtistryAlliance.net (emailing Mary Gae)

"Artistry at the Piano" are the books by Jon George. There is also a newsletter. See the website.

Best wishes in your endeavors, Crystalcolors!

Betty

I too have come across this with choirs, children and adults. The adults are used to calling themselves "tone-deaf". They are sometimes referred to as "droners" - that is, droning away on one note. However, with the children at least, in every case I worked with, I found improvement. It wasn't that they couldn't hear the differences between pitches, they just couldn't reproduce them with their vocal apparatus because they didn't know how. They were "singing" just as they speak, at the pitch they speak, and this was considerably lower than the pitch they were being asked to sing. It's a long topic, but ways to start include finding what pitch their one note is and working from there, as Betty was mentioning, and also helping them find the potential of their voice by high and low vocal sounds (a bit like sirens). It's hard for us to realise sometimes that some people just simply haven't had the musical input in their early years that we have had.
I would define tone-deaf as being unable to perceive differences in pitch. Whether a person can sing them is a different thing. I would be surprised if your little girl or her adoptive mother could not say "same" or "different" after hearing two notes. (and they may even need some practice before they realise what the question means!) But if they couldn't do this, then by my definition this is tone-deaf.
So don't give up . I really admire the effort you're prepared to put in here.

And just a little word about rhythm. Make sure you start with her rhythm. That is, asking her to clap/march/sway along with an established rhythm is the second step. The first is to ask her to clap/march/sway/whatever and reinforce what she does by playing music, or clapping along with her, so that she gets the connection more easily. It's the same principle as finding the one note she can sing and working from there. Good luck!

Thank you, Betty, for Mary Gae's info. I will certainly check out her site.

I don't have a video camera, but I'll see what I can do. Attendance stickers! Which reminds me. There is one student who has a very tardy father who has all kinds of excuse to miss the lesson. She wants to come, but her father is just so inconsistent. Anyway, that's another topic. Attendance chart on the wall may wake up this tardy father!

Thanks, currawong, for defining "tone-deaf". I think this girl can improve, if I take time to train her. Perhaps once her rhythm issue is settled (thank you for your suggestion), we'll do that. Yikes! 45 minutes is not enough!