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Is there a correlation between how MEAN a teacher is and how well his/her students perform?

In my part of the world, there are a number of teachers who are notoriously mean, yet they continue to have tons of students who play super well and win major awards! For example, I was sitting in at a competition where a bunch of 5-year-old students were playing. Afterwards, when we all left the room, a teacher started yelling at her student in front of everybody. The kid didn't play the best, and did make some mistakes, but he is FIVE YEARS OLD for crying out loud. For some reason, this teacher continues to get top-notch students who play exceptionally well. Am I missing something here??

No one at any age in music deserves a public reprimand or scolding at any age or level of playing. Yelling? At a 5 year old? Is it verbal abuse?

Is the teacher tolerated by the other teachers on a personal level? In a way this seems to me to be almost an ethical issue - since what goes on in association meetings reflects the whole chapter of teacher-members and all of MTNA.

When I was new to the chapter we got a letter from a psychologist in the audience (also a parent) who informed us about children's psyches and self esteem issues from a situation that she thought was grossly mishandled by the student's teacher. She held everyone in the chapter accountable, and stated she hoped that we would address the situation so it would never be repeated again.

The "Prima Donna" teachers are demanding of their students and demanding of the audience and intimidating to other teachers. They can pull some rank behavior in public in their demand for attention. Insatiably!

We are examples for each other - for what to do - and for what not to do - and you have to choose carefully who your mentors will be.

Good subject for a topic.

Your part of California also has a high Asian population, AZNpiano. Think about it. What sort of teacher will freshly landed Asians gravitate to? Certainly not the whole-grain hippie peace-loving beatnik teacher that I am. They probably think that teacher is strict and will keep her kids in line.

We shouldn't coddle our students but we shouldn't shame them into playing better either. I hope the teacher you witnessed gets some stern disciplinary action, as public humiliation from a grownup is one of the worst things you can do to a child.

I consider myself a strict teacher who holds high standards for my students. However, I am not mean. It is a fine line. I try to be very nice to my students, and respectful, even if they need a "lecture" (btw, which is something I would do at their next lesson, not right after a performance). There are some students who thrive on a more disciplinarian attitude, and some parents who want that becuase they got slapped on the wrists by a nun when they had piano lessons as a child, therefore, that is considered common practice, isn't it? I think it's a shame, really.

I'm 53 years old. I like strict. Not mean. Don't want to get in trouble for not doing my homework.

Some parents like that...

I have taken on students where the parent has told me--straight faced--that they are comfortable with me hitting thier daughter as a learning resource.

I am not comfortable with that technique...

Hey, I KNOW mean. I was treated to the 'ruler on the knuckles' approach to mistakes when I was six. Some Roman Catholic nuns of the era still practiced that learning technique! As soon as my mother got wind of this she yanked me away, but it took her three more years to persuade me that not all teachers physically abuse their students.

None of us but AZN were there, so it's a stretch to lay out really strong views about an incident the rest of us did not witness. Nonetheless, I'll certainly agree that publicly dressing down a five year old is a bit strong. What are they doing at competitions anyway, one wonders? On the other hand, on the other side of the pond it's common for teachers at recitals to critique their students in front of all the assembled students and families, and not all the criticism is nice. There are different practices that are longstanding, and which represent potentially effective ways to promote learning.

What next? As we mentally prepare for a piano recital or some other event are we to visualize being beaten and publically berated if we make a mistaken, don't play beautifully or win?

On the other hand constructive criticism can be good in a group setting as long as people are aware it is is safe. Military pilots do it all the time after missions, they evaluate and critique each aspect of the mission and each other because they know there is no such thing as a flawless event and the things that went wrong are great learning points.

And you wonder why some people don't want to perform in public? In the back of their minds, irrational as it is, they remember that teacher with the ruler, ready to scold them for the slightest mistake.

"There are different practices that are longstanding, and which represent potentially effective ways to promote learning."

Sorry Pianodad - bleeding with leeches was also a long-standing practice.

Motivation by force does work ... but does that make it right or desirable in the long run? IMO no - it is nothing more than child abuse.

The desire to learn, including learning how to do things (like playing an instrument) is intrinsic to being human ... it is part of our nature. Using force (hitting, berating, belittling) as a "motivator" makes kids hate learning. Remove the threat and they stop playing. I know too many kids who grew up playing piano under threat who hate and dropped piano as soon as they could.

IMO our goal as parents and teachers is to inspire kids and to develop a love of learning. Setting goals and expectations is fine, but follow it up with pats on the back, hugs, praise, regular practice, acceptance of mistakes, letting them learn some songs they actually like … all good stuff.

Not to insuiate that it is, but I hope this does not turn out to be a thread promoting the correlation of being mean to students with good performance.

Of course, there are different degrees of meanness, which should should not be confused with being strict or critical. I think you can be the latter, but in a tactful way, with emphasis on tactful. There's always two ways of saying something -- I'd encourage you to pick the nicer of the two.

I don't know how bad this tongue lashing incident was, if it was an isolated incident or typical of this particular teacher, but aimed a young child is uncalled for and unprofessional. I'll bet the teacher did not consider the potential long-term psychological effects of his/her teaching methods. Of course, you want to leave a lasting impression on your students, but this is not one of them.

all right, some of my teacher's students have called her mean because she is so strict and her students do extremely well, but it's only their perception of her as they do not get any work done at all.

my teacher would never yell at a student for a reason like this. She will give encouragement instead and say that maybe next time you will do better. She handles her 7-9 year old kids that she teaches well and they adore her.

Quite funny, I will admit. But read what I said more carefully and tell me exactly why longstanding European habits of publicly discussing student performance in front of their peers is ipso facto wrong, so wrong in fact that it bears comparison with medical practices of the middle ages. Is there strong evidence that Europe produces worse musicians? or that their psych wards have more damaged people as a result?

I would agree that aggressive dressing down of a five year old, or screaming at them, or physically abusing them is deeply problematic. But that was not what I was referring to.

Oh, leeches are back in vogue for certain problems! :p

Hello and here is my story about my very, very strict classical piano teacher. I know now the answer. At least for me. Thank you to the person who asked this question in our forum. I would never have thought about this without your question. YES...I was more successful as a classical piano student because of my strict classical piano teacher. The reason? I was 23 years old before I studied piano, no other instruments before. I was very, very artistic by nature and by genetics too. She taught me to be very academic in my approach to classical piano studies. No playing around at all would she tolerate. Because of her strict teaching methods I knew this was my job and I did it for her as I knew she was an excellent teacher who guided me with her Master's Degree In Music Education. She moved and my next classical piano teacher had her Master's in Music Education and asked me to teach as her understudy right away. Yes it really worked for me. I will always be grateful to her and think of her often now. She is deceased, Sarah Lasonic who taught me at Foxcroft School in Middleburg, 1960's, as a private classical piano student. She once screamed at me, "No, No, No," at the piano , after several months of studies, while banging her right fist on the high end of the keys of this beautiful Steinway upright piano. She set her ground rules as I burst into tears. We made friends later with lunch, ice skating with her husband too at our near by farm. Sandy B

I had a mean teacher back when I was preparing for my Gr 10 exam. I really wanted to rush and take the exam early and she disagreed. I practiced 3 hours a day, and was making excellent progress. I went ahead with the early date, and Right before the exam, she told me that there was no way I could even pass (let alone get honors) and ridiculed my decision to continue.

Long story short, I ended up getting 87% (total mark) for the exam, and continued on with my ARCT immediately (with another teacher)

The mean teacher was the best teacher I have ever had. She refused to teach me after I passed, but I wish she had. She agreed to teach me again after all these years, and I am truly excited to continue. She was never abusive, but indeed cold and cruel. It was part of her mystique. people expect it with going to her.

I cannot emulate her, because I have a different teaching style, There is no one ultimate style.

High standards, yes! Constructive criticism, yes! Collaboration, yes! Transfer of knowledge, yes! With concern and vigilance to being a help mate to the student not to be their final judge and jury and say and do very upsetting things to them.

Leadership to confidence and success is a conflict in affecting good outcomes if you are going to inflict the iron hand, crack the whip, or berate a piano student.

Students should vote with their feet. If they stay and take it, that makes them a glutton for punishment, a martyr in training, and a victim.

We do have to say things strongly from time to time, but it can be done with consideration. Like in the "Hippocratic Oath"...first do no harm.

Well, I close my case. Sandy B

Akira,

Thanks for the article on Verbal Abuse. I always find your postings thoughtful and benevolent - as in giving things to think about. Very constructive.

We do have a huge responsibility to humanity in that we affect someone's growth to musical accomplishment, or we demolish their dreams by our poor choices, impulsive actions, and unkind words.

I'd like to think that we have integrity and ethics, but it seems that it's not a character trait across the board in the field of piano teaching. Doctors and attorneys and people state licenced to do business have a system of accountability to answer to.

I think we can get intense easily and it can escalate into long term habits. Reputations are formed on our outcomes with students. I think we can bring out their music without beating it into them. I'm not easy, but I am nice, like 99% of the time, I think. And, that doesn't mean that stress doesn't affect me.

It all comes down to choices about who do we want to be?


Betty

I'm not a piano teacher, and it would be much different if the student was an adult, but:

If it had been my 5 year old child (or grandchild) that was screamed at in public immediately after a recital by a teacher, I would have been thinking whether it was worth a possible police charge to DECK the teacher.

My decision would have been that it wasn't worth going to jail for - but my child would no longer be a student of that particular teacher, and I would go to some length to contact local music stores, the Guild (if the teacher was a member), MTNA (if the teacher was a member), studios, and possibly even the local media. Screaming at a 5 year old in public is NOT acceptable behavior.

At least that is so in eastern North Carolina. As far as a teacher with that demeanor - they would not have much of a future here.

There is never any excuse for a teacher hurling such verbal abuse at a student, especially a sensitive child who is apt to be scarred for life.
Being strict is one thing, but shaming a child publicly is abuse, and should not be tolerated.

Gaby Tu