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Hi all,

Long time reader, first writer. I was going to post my entry on the Adult Beginner's Forum, but I thought better to address my concerns on this forum.

I am 53 years old. About 10 years ago, I took piano lessons for about 4 years. I had no musical background and could not read or play a note. In four years as a part time student, I made it through passing the RCM level 4 exams. (I know some have done much better, but I thought I did well making it that far). I took the lessons as a prerequisite to taking up classical organ. I took classical organ for about 3 years. My job requirements forced me to put the music hobby down for awhile, but now I am getting the time and interest back.

This time I have equal interest in classical piano and organ (as I have both instruments at home). I have been searching for a piano teacher who would be willing to work with me to repair some bad keyboard habits I have picked up, and improve my keyboard technique for ornamentation etc, which is essential for Bach, Buxtehude, Couperin, Handel etc. I would even like to play more late classical / romantic so that the technique is there for Mendelsohnn, Franck, Widor etc.

So I have been scouring the various teachers websites and setting up phone calls and interviews.

To prepare for the customary interview I brushed up on a few simple to internmediate pieces, primarily to give an example as to where I am at:

Trumpet Tune: Purcell
Hornpipe: Purcell
Musette: Bach
Chorale Prelude-
Nun Danket Alle Gott: Kauffmann
Ballo del Granduca (1&2var): Sweelinck

So far I have contacted 4 teachers, and to my surprise all 4 have turned me down! I only made it to 3 interviews, and after I got done playing and we discussed what I was looking for, in all 3 I was told sorry. The one interview I didn't have, I was told sorry on the phone.

The four prospective teachers were all Masters degreed instructors (one even in pedagogy). The recurring answer that I received from all four is that my interests don't fit!

I am little dismayed by what I am hearing. Unfortunately my prior piano instructor has retired and moved out of state, so I cannot return to her. In my dismay, I am very puzzled as why the deferrals and what I should do.

Personally, I don't think my interests are that far off the norm. Many career organists spent many years working their piano skills prior to organ. I really believe that before I go back to classical organ I need to work Bach (at least through WTC etc). But without the proper teaching, I know I will flounder at my attempts.

Any constructive comments or critique to my dilemma would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Amateur Jerry

Hi Jerry,

You understand, of course, that the technique required for piano is distinctively different than what's required for organ, even though both are deceptive, as both have keyboards. But your gut instincts are correct, learn to read music and develop some proficiency on the piano, then transition to organ, where you'll be adding the pedal board to your skill set.

Musically, I am surprised, as what you've listed is very much typical for classical piano training, except the Sweelinck.

I have a neighbor who teaches exactly what you want, but the trip is a bit lengthy. I would just keep searching. You're relatively close to both Joliet and Chicago, so there must be thousands of teachers who'd like to connect with you.

Good luck,

John

John,

Thank you for the feedback. I clearly understand the difference between piano and organ. For example, when I first started organ, I had to play more fingers than wrist, and I had play more legato (no sustain pedal to cover the holes).

To prepare for the baroque, I am looking for proper execution of all the different ornamentation, would I be playing on the right beat etc? Some of the other areas I was inquiring about is bringing out point / counterpoint within the fugal passages, the different kinds of fugal passages say that Bach used versus something much later like Widor or Dupre. There are a lot of baroque works that require emphasis on middle voices; so not only executing those middle voices but keeping a consistent rhythm. Common to both instruments is still the intricate fingering for all those preludes and fugues. These are some of the techniques that I really need the improvement.

By the way, I understand that the Sweelinck piece is really more clavichord, harpsichord, or organ, but I wanted to play something that I like.

Thanks for the input

Best Regards

Amateur Jerry

Hi Jerry,

Welcome! I am an adult beginner, not a teacher. But a couple of things came to mind when I read your post. Teachers on here can feel free to tell me that I am full of it!

First, a lot of piano teachers specialize in teaching kids and do not take on adults. I ran into this when I was looking for a teacher. About four or five told me that they do not teach adults. If you do a search in the Teacher forum for threads on adult students, you will see that teaching adults can require a different approach. I felt a little dejected when the teachers told me that they do not teach adults, but years later, after having read a lot of threads in the teacher forum here, I now realize that it is better for a teacher to be upfront with me if they do not have the skill set or interest in taking on an adult student. Saves problems down the road.

Second, I get the sense that if a prospective student comes with specific, pre-formed ideas and agendas of what s/he wants to learn that do not match with the teacher's pedagogical approach, the teacher will not want to take on that student. It makes sense to not want to take on a student knowing full well that there is a conflict in expectations, etc. It makes sense for a student to know what they want to get out of lessons. But when you start to get specific about what exactly you are seeking, it may take longer to find a teacher who is willing to be boxed in, so to speak.

Third, and this one is pure speculation. You seem very knowledge about music, which is commendable. But, could this come across as intimidating? I sometimes felt that I was putting my teacher on the spot when I asked specific questions.

My advice is that when you are talking to a prospective teacher, you should try to sound more open-minded about what you want to learn, e.g. "I want to continue learning classical music. I particularly like the Baroque and late Classical and Romantic styles but I am open to exploring other music. I want to improve my technique, particularly x." Then during the conversation, you can feel them out by asking how they would approach or what they think about x or y issue. If you really are seeking what you stated, you can stick with it but know that it may take some time to find a teacher who is open to going along with it.

I'm a piano teacher on the verge of not accepting adult students anymore. I agree with Soleil nuage on the first two counts. I'm not sure a piano teacher would be intimidated by specific questions, perhaps only slightly annoyed.

You have to look at things from the piano teacher's perspective. You already have twenty students stretching you in all directions. One wants to know jazz chords, another proper harmony and history for the exams, another needs serious behavioral concerns addressed (presumably a child!), another one is studying for a grade nine exam, the repertoire of which requires that you practice between lessons to keep up with them, and then an adult comes along mentioning Widor or Dupre neither of which you've heard of. It might be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I think people learn piano best when they throw themselves at the feet of the teacher, and say, "Have mercy on me, I don't know what the heck I'm doing! Help!" rather than coming up with questions on an introductory meeting. You never know what you'll learn with my approach!

You're looking for a teacher of Baroque music. The teachers out there are traditionally Romantic. As you say, you wish to understand ornaments - that's not been common knowledge for a couple of hundred years. See if you can find a harpsichord teacher. Maybe even buy yourself a clavichord? I own two!

I do think that adults often chase after the wrong teachers as well. They look for the most highly qualified, prestigious pianists or educationalists because obviously they want the very best their money can buy. But it is these teachers who are the most selective (they can afford to be) and in any case what they offer might not be appropriate. It's kind of like asking Lewis Hamilton for driving lessons if you get what I mean. Most of these teachers specialize in working with advanced performance majors. They don't want an adult re-starter.

I'm not saying you need to lower your standards. It's more a case of finding a good fit. There are plenty of good 'grass roots' teachers out there who have enough skill and knowledge to help you and would be willing to take you on. Teachers like me for example! I am happy to take adults but the funny thing is that they don't often get in touch. My guess is that they head for the Conservatoire and try to arrange lessons with the professors and concert pianists. No doubt they get turned down.

How should someone like Amateur Jerry present his case in that first telephone call and interview? What gets mentioned how, and what is left out? I am thinking the fact that the OP is returning and has had lessons, wishes to polish his skills, and is interested in particular in the Baroque period including ornaments. Mentioning particular composers and works would be unnecessary and give information overload since skills, not pieces, are the goal - would that be correct? So my question to teachers is, what should such a student mention to prospective teachers, and how? Should one perhaps indicate a willingness to do one's bit, by asking something like - if these are my goals, what would you expect of me as a student?

The thing is that if you say nothing, you can easily get a teacher who thinks your goals are casual, aiming toward repertoire and sounding nice, and teach toward that. Or a teacher who is not specialized in that period like kbk indicated, and so could not teach what the OP is after.

Chris, could you define "grass roots" teacher? And how would a student find someone such as yourself? Where, if one is serious, does one look, and what does one look for? And then, once you do know whom to phone, how do you present yourself so that the teacher knows enough about your goals, but does not feel he or she has been handed a shopping list?

Kbk, would you go so far as to say that period music is best played on period instruments and learning the technique of that time which goes hand in hand with both the music and the instrument? Is that actually something to ask a prospective teacher, and then the same question, where would such a teacher be found?

I was once in a choir where the choirmaster was a Baroque specialist who also gave workshops of period music on period instruments. Would attending period performances and listening carefully possibly give you an idea of where to find such a teacher, if such is the chosen route?

For a start I wouldn't necessarily be browsing websites to find the most highly qualified instructor. Credentials are important but an adult re-starter needs to work with a teacher who has experience of adult re-starters. They might not hold a masters degree in pedagogy but is that really important?

I would say a 'grass roots' teacher would be a full time private instructor working from home or their own studio. They would teach pretty much anyone willing to learn and would have a wide and varied experience. Some might even specialize in teaching adults. You could expect them to have some form of professional qualifications in music and teaching as well as some experience in performing. Most piano teachers who do the job for a living will have these things. If your main interest is Baroque music you might want to look for a more Classical teacher rather than one who mainly teaches jazz/blues/rock etc. Every teacher with a Classical training will be well versed in Baroque as well as other periods.

So where do you find them? Word of mouth is often the best bet. Do you know anyone who takes lessons or whose kids take lessons? Many good teachers don't really advertise because they get plenty of students through word of mouth. You could also try the local music store, private ads in local papers and directories like Yellow pages (not sure if you get that in the US?).

I would start by explaining that you have past experience and would like to return to lessons. I don't think I would be too specific about what you want to learn in terms of style, at least not over the phone. It could appear that you are being a bit narrow minded and would not be willing to follow the teachers recommendations. For example, if someone called me and said they would only study Baroque I probably wouldn't take them. If they said they are interested in Baroque but would be willing to try other things it would be fine. I would appreciate knowing the repertoire studied previously because it gives me an idea where you are at. I think it is best not to mention the organ when enquiring about piano lessons. The technique is very different.

One more thing......keep trying!

If those teachers turned you away then they would not have been right for you. Somewhere out there is the right teacher and they are waiting for you to call.

Thank You All,


I appreciate all the comments / critiques.

I do appreciate the upfront candor that the teachers I did discuss my desires with told me then not later. I have no issue with that.

What has surprised me is the statistics that I have been 0 for 4 discussing potential lessons with well qualified instructors. (It wasn't like I just walked into a beginners class and had all these expectations).

From my perspective, the reason I have been (based on the feedback probably over) discrete is I wanted to address the actual shortcomings of my abilities. I have received feedback from others that I am lacking in certain areas and before I go any further (in piano or organ) I need to address. For example, I have been told by one individual that my attempts to play Bach sometimes sound like "I am playing Franck ". So from my perspective I gathered up the the feedback, and used it as a basis for me pursue a mentor to improve my abilities.

It's not the teachers not knowing what they are talking about. They were all very knowledgeable. I am just taken back that at the past events and trying to figure out why and how to overcome this.

Regards

Amateur Jerry

I'm not sure you are doing anything wrong Jerry. You are who you are. You have been honest and up front with these teachers and your playing is what it is. You really can't do any more. It's up to them to decide if they would take you as a student. Sadly there are a lot of teachers who won't take you but you only need one that will. It doesn't matter if you are at 0 out of 4 right now. 1 out of 20 would be fine wouldn't it? Just keep looking, asking and calling. You will find the right match.

Ideally yes, I'd search out a university dept. You'd have to be especially keen to go the whole hog technique, instrument and all but it's far more satisfying. Maybe search for two teachers?

I woudl check the many universities and colleges in the area to see if any of the piano professors specialize in Baroque music. If they don't ask if they know of someone who does.

I know of a director in Chicago at Northwestern University, Stephen Alltop, who himself is an accomplished harpsichordist and Baroque musician. I don't think he gives lessons at all, but if anyone knows of someone who does, he would be the person! I'd give him a call and see who he would recommend.

The toughest thing I think is that you are looking for a specialist without being at the level of playing that a specialist would require. Someone who specializes in Baroque ornamentation does not want to teach the rudiments of piano. They would want an advanced pianist to work with, so they wouldn't have to teach you good fingering, proper technique, etc. The level of playing where you are at currently is early Intermediate. Your best bet is to find a teacher who teaches adult students, and is comfortable working in the Intermediate levels. Sure, you can let them know that you have a passion for Baroque and Romantic music, and that you also play organ. Let them know your goals. It may take a while to find just the right teacher for you. But be open, as other people have posted, to whatever the teacher thinks will get you to that point where you are ready to move onto a specialist.

To Amateur Jerry,

A real challenge to me is being able to listen to period instruments played by musicians specializing in early music period performance.

I think you will find your complete training in the university halls with a specialist of the instrument you ultimately want to perform these on. If (s)he can't work with you at this time because you are not totally prepared to take this on at this time, (s)he can direct you to resources in print, recordings, and a preparatory teacher (credentialed)to study with. There are also Early Music Societies, as well as American Organ Guilds around the country.

I think if you start at the top and trickle back down to where you are, you will find your path forward by locating the expertise you need at today's point.

It is a whole different sound and technique played on today's modern piano than on any keyboard instrument that came before. Individualist requirements of each instrument, as well as a study of the ornaments and school of playing at the time is a very committed study and best shared with others of the same persuasion.

I find it difficult to be in the same room during a performance on early instruments because of the big difference in sound and tuning and the instrument voice. The vibrations grate on my nervous system, I'm sorry to say. A defect that I have!

We can still receive today the benefits of the contributions from those who have kept early performance alive. But, I do wonder how long we will be able to say that into the future and retain the authenticity of it. SIG (Special interest group, for sure!)

I find the time periods and composers to be thrilling in their pursuit of music and enjoy very much the music of the day, but I don't like listening to it being played on original instruments. I've seen beautiful instruments in museums and in illustrated art and photograph collections, the history of the instruments themselves are fascinating, I think.

I enjoy Wanda Landowska harpsichord, organ, recorder, viol from recordings, but the live in the room performances just don't work for me. I can't be in the same room for very long, unfortunately. At least this has been true of my history.

I personally thrive on the sound of piano and viola, cello, and the alto voice, or baritone voice of a capella - it's a preferance of mine.
The more sonorous, the more I enjoy!

What a calling you are feeling! In pursuing your interest, you will develop an in depth different skill and mind set of precision and authenticity than the average adult piano student.

Somehow a picture of Henry VIII just passed before my eyes! The patron saint of recorders, he practiced daily. Henry would smile and shake your hand. Fervant recognizing fervant. Have you heard Baroque recorder quartets? You might try listening to the Flanders Recorder Quartet's newest CD, “The Six Wives of Henry VIII”

Might there be some summer workshops on early music around the country? And, of course videos on YouTube. Etc.

How many hundreds of years are you covering in your quest?

Betty

hmmmmmmmmm i've never had to have an "interview" to be with a teacher, sounds awfuly pretentious to me...

having said that you said all the teachers you asked had masters degrees.... so no offense with that kind of education maybe they only want to teach higher level students?

Do you have to have a teacher with such high qualifications? I have my grade 10 piano, with NO degree in music or anything and i'm the higest qualified teacher at my job, and in the whole city I work in. I'm sure there are lots of teachers like that in your area

I don't think your interests are "odd" they seem normal to me, so don't worry about anything that YOU are doing. Just keep searching, good luck!

I can't find where Jerry said anything about playing early music on period instruments. Was this in another thread?

Seriously, I don't think it is a good idea to specialise in this kind of study until you have reached a very high standard in general. It's the type of thing an undergrad or even post grad performance major might branch off into. Looking for a college professor to teach Baroque music on period instruments at this stage (for Jerry) would be pointless. I don't think that is what Jerry is looking for anyway.

Pointless? It wasn't pointless for the sons of Bach or his many students!

I don't think that Bach's students would have had much choice in what they studied.