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Joined: Jan 2008
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Thanks Tim. That makes sense...daily lessons in the beginning. It gives me the idea of perhaps offering summer intensive study for new beginners.
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I was surprised to see that Bernard teaches daily lessons for each child, not weekly. As I recall, that changes as they advance, but he starts everybody that way. Then they reduce number of days over time. They pay by the month, or maybe by the semester, so his rates may not be terribly different from yours. And I think the earlier lessons are shorter. He also tries to do the practicing at the lesson so they do it correctly, I think that's one of the points of the daily lesson. Is the guy for real?? I mean could he not be fantasizing? He does have a knowledge base but .. I will admit that I haev not read everything over there but I have read through this thread as it is often referenced here. I also read about his pedagogigal approach. But some of it just seems unrealistic.
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Bach is illustrating the different types of tiny ideas (motifs) you can come up with and what is suitable treatment for each type I don't quite understand this sentence. When considering composition, what does "treatment" mean? You craft your motif to suit the vehicle (genre). Your treatment of that motif is how the 'vehicle' comes about. Bach could predict how another's composition was going to pan out as soon as he heard the opening few bars - he immediately knew the potential of the initial idea.
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I can see the value of daily lessons for the beginner. I think it is very hard to send them on their way and hope that they know what to do every day. You can give them information overload trying to give them good instructions for the week! So then you compromise and let them figure out some things on their own and gradually give them more instruction on practice in consecutive lessons. Certainly not the ideal.
For my voice students, I recently instituted a policy where they come 3 times a week for the first 8 lessons (I know, it doesn't really add up nicely, but that's residual from my regular 8-lesson trial period of once a week, I'll change it eventually :)). They are told not to practice at all in between lessons. This is for tow reasons: 1) We are building up strength in the breathing muscles and in the laryngeal muscles, so they need the time off in between for rest and 2) So that they do not practice wrong, counteracting the work we do in lessons by going back to their old way of singing. So far, students have found a way to do this, and it really have been a benefit. I think then next time I'm ready to start a beginner piano student, I'll institute something similar, but perhaps twice a week for a month or something.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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Bach is illustrating the different types of tiny ideas (motifs) you can come up with and what is suitable treatment for each type I don't quite understand this sentence. When considering composition, what does "treatment" mean? You craft your motif to suit the vehicle (genre). Your treatment of that motif is how the 'vehicle' comes about. Bach could predict how another's composition was going to pan out as soon as he heard the opening few bars - he immediately knew the potential of the initial idea. Thank you, I think I understand.
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Would you like some more points? Each one seems to be a different genre. I know no. 4 is a Giga II and no. 10 is a Correntes. Anybody know what the others are?
No. 14 always strikes me as an overture. No. 8 reminds of the Brandenburg Concertos. No. 2 and No. 7 feel like duets (vocal) to me. I'd play these really really slow and enjoy the inflections of every phrase. No. 3 sounds like a short prelude. How is No. 4 a gigue? No. 6 is unique because of the rounded binary form with repeats. Probably a corrente or passipied. No. 10 feels like a gigue. No. 12, probably the most virtuoso of the set, sounds like a prelude from the WTC in terms of difficulty and brilliance.
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I find this a useful resource:
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2714.0.html Thank you, theJourney, for this unique link to Piano Street and the discussion of Bach: 2 and 3 Part Inventions. I would recommend anyone having questions about Bach Inventions and how to teach them read through and keep this as a resource to come back to. I found the idea that Bernard (the chief poster) in this topic, 1) teaches 5 year olds daily and then reduces the number of lessons accordingly, and 2) teaches Bach Inventions to beginners after they have learned to read from notation, but not necessarily to play skillfully yet, to be incredible concepts. I have read only half of the first page and will eagerly read more to see what can add to my knowledge of teaching Bach. It's a good workout of the mind for growth and development as a musician and a teacher. I'm taking John v.d.Brook's comment that he plays all back to back to be a challenge I would like to take on as a project since I've had favorites to play and teach but never attempted the entire work as a unit. It's not too late! Betty Patnude
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I doubt whether Bach viewed them as a unit to be performed all at once - but that doesn't mean we can't play them that way!
It's humbling to me to see how clumsily I play some of these today.
(I'm a piano teacher.)
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That's from Little and Jenne Dance and the Music of Bach. They say no. 4 is Giga II like. No. 10 they designate Giga I (the difference between I and II is one of complexity) (I don't know where I got Corrente from). Also they designate no. 12 as Giga II.
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Joined: May 2009
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I play all 15 of them straight through, although Bach didn't conceive them this way nor compose them this way. Many teachers, like AZN, consider #1 the easiest. Presumably, this is because it's in C major. C major is a difficult key for us to play in, because of the shape of our hands; it is, however, an easy key to read. We shouldn't confuse the two. MM 11 - 14 are difficult to play well and it's obvious, this was written to be played on a two manual harpsichord. Teaching the long trills in #4 is quite easy. Teach students to play 2 against one. The trills should end on at the end of beat 2 in measures 21 and 32. In the Baroque period, no one played a trill forever. In general, I think we teachers tend to introduce the Inventions too early to students. For example, if a student can play Kulau Op 55, #3, then he or she is probably advanced enough for these. For student musicians, being able to have complete independence of hands is critical to successfully playing the inventions. IMO. The C major invention was NOT intended for a two manual harpsichord. Of course it CAN be played on that instrument, but, it is just as accessible on the clavichord as on the harpsichord (and in our case the piano). Bach, on his title page for the inventions and sinfonias, states, "Honest method, by which the amateurs of the keyboard"...etc. Firstly, the term, "keyboard, in Bach's time meant any of several keyboard instruments, so none of the inventions or sinfonias would have been intended for one specific instrument. Secondly, the clavichord (not the harpsichord) was the most popular keyboard instrument of Bach's time for financial reasons as well as the fact that the clavichord takes up far less room than does a harpsichord (especially a two manual instrument). The term "amateur", in his introduction, then supports, even further, the fact that none of the inventions or sinfonias were intended for a two manual keyboard, since most amateurs/students, could not afford a two manual instrument nor would they more than likely have had access to one. As to the trills in the 4th invention...there is no specific beat or fraction of a beat the trill needs to end on. The trill must include a minimum number of four notes, but may be freely interpreted afterward by the performer. Longer trills, such as those found in this invention may, indeed, consume the entire value of the note and that is the case here as evidenced by Bach's ties, which are found throughout his compositions when he asks for a trill to last the duration of succeeding note values. Baroque performers absolutely would have played lengthy trills. There are tons of examples to be found throughout the baroque literature and C.P.E. Bach talks about the long trill in his, "True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments".
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Whenever John makes a boob he rarely replies. Welcome back Mr Wood, and very erudite if I may say so.
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one of the creative things I do when learning Bach is to practice the left hand with the right accompanying (playing the same music). I don't know logistically why this is helpful.. perhaps the fingering of the left hand is more easily acquired.. perhaps the voices are more fully realized.
it is difficult for less advanced students to understand the linear nature of Bach's music and the independence of the voices.
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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I always have students learn both voices HT in unison. It's amazing how their fingering, coordination and listening improve.
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed. M.M., Piano
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I always have students learn both voices HT in unison. It's amazing how their fingering, coordination and listening improve. Can you elaborate on this? One of my former teachers tried this on me, and it failed miserably, mostly because the "other" hand will struggle to find a suitable fingering. I can imagine it work by playing hands separately...
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Well, they start learning it HS, but before I have them play as written, I have them play both parts in unison. They learn both parts with both hands HS. That's important, I think.
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed. M.M., Piano
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I always have students learn both voices HT in unison. It's amazing how their fingering, coordination and listening improve. Can you elaborate on this? One of my former teachers tried this on me, and it failed miserably, mostly because the "other" hand will struggle to find a suitable fingering. I can imagine it work by playing hands separately... if I may.... i use it to quickly teach my left hand the fingering..it just works. the left hand follows and automatically chooses the correct fingering... it seems so much stronger and assertive when it has the crutch of the right hand helping it along. I've done this tho for at least a couple years and I do imagine it was a struggle at first. I do not have the left hand follow the right. disclaimer.. I can play almost all of WTC 1 and II and play Bach daily.
Last edited by apple*; 11/28/09 10:17 PM.
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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Whenever John makes a boob he rarely replies. Welcome back Mr Wood, and very erudite if I may say so. Thank you klutz. I'll not let one idiot ruin things for me (I'm sure you know who I mean).
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I learned F+ (#8), f- (#9) and Bb (#14) inventions when preparing for my grade 8 RCM (list "A"). All were prepared but only one was chosen for the exam (and not by me!). My teacher really likes f- so she chose that one. It seems my teacher invariably teaches three inventions for the grade 8 RCM exam and then ultimately chooses one. I did my grade 8 RCM when I was eleven - two and a half years ago.
She taught this, I thought, in a strange way. The first few lessons were identifying where the melody was and playing only the melody - and playing it fluently. I found it frustrating learning this way, but she was unbending about it (not that I complained openly to her - yikes!) She used the same method when learning three sinfonias for grade 9 RCM (ended up playing #10 sinfonia).
I received quite a few negative comments on everything about this piece when I put on a performance of it on YouTube - it's still there. Some were absolutely excoriating (to be fair, most comments were great and encouraging). Most of the comments were about my poor fingering (I can't remember the fingering problems now) and about my posture. It's hard taking negative criticism when you're young.
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It's hard taking negative criticism when you're young. hmmmm.. a timely comment, and something important for me to know.. perhaps a new subject for a new thread on a new day.
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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Well, they start learning it HS, but before I have them play as written, I have them play both parts in unison. They learn both parts with both hands HS. That's important, I think. I really can't see the value of this practice at all unless a set of other hand fingerings are written in - correct fingering being so appropriate here. Presumably that makes a real mess of the page.
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