Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?

I think distortion is a very possible thing when we play from the master composers works. The instruments have changed greatly, the differences in society changes is huge. We are not the same people that they were - their musical experiences came from a different environment. News comes to us in the present moment and agitates and stresses us on an international basis every moment of a 24 hour day, seven days a week.

I think to enter there music as they did, we would have to effect more than their music and characteristics. We would have to enter their lifestyle and reality to be exacting replicas of their music.

To capture their way of doing it, would a person not have to be a "purist" and "scholar" in search of the "prima vista" if that could be used as back to the origination point.

Evolution is a funny thing. You notice it in passing through it. Kind of a megatrends thing.

How exacting can we be? Perfection is a tightrope, excellance is a pursuit. I, myself, am happy to reach a close approximation from time to time.

Betty, you have a good point. Most 18th music was written for a highly educated elite who had an ear for complexity. This changed with the rise of the middle-class in the 19th.

There were cheap seats in theaters even then. Plus street musicians, music at bars and taverns, church music and things like that.

I would have to pull out my research papers, which are currently buried in my attic for exact quotes. But I do know of things Mozart said in his letters regarding the left hand falling behind the right. I also recall quotes about Mozart's playing where the audience swooned upon hearing him play his own music. Who has ever done this in modern times?

I will be happy to provide you with quotes, if you will be patient, as I am in the middle of other things.

Dear Teachers, Sandy B here again...The question you answered, "Should we play classical piano as closely as possible to what the composer intended from the lineage?" I have posed the question to our classical piano forum just minutes ago. I am anxious to hear their answers. All 30 pages of the teachers answers will be read carefully by me now. I briefed though earlier. Thank all of you again . Sandy B

Dear Teachers, Sandy B here and going to bed now so I will sign off tonight . You can give yourselves credit for making a "Golden Girl" lady very happy today. The 30 pages of info you wonderful members have emailed to me, and I printed out, have been read. I will research the excellent information and referrals to others sites. The lineage information was very touching and I treasure...I cannot wait to call my very close friend a piano teacher , Glenn Rapoport, semi retired piano teacher. His dad was a Concertmaster Violinist with the Portland Maine Symphony and one of the founders. Glenn grew up in this wonderful world of music at the concert hall. My dad was a Big Band, Society , band member for years too. We share, both of our dads were professional musicians. We love sharing musicial information and he will love input. I will read to him word for word very soon. Thank you again and good night. Sandy B

Well Sandy, I would like to take this moment to tell you that you are welcome and I'm glad that my word was worth something. I myself was very pleased with the responses as well and have really thought deeply on the matter and some of answers to questions posed just caused more questions for me to ponder about. That's one thing I love about music, it's so deep and there is so much to explore and speculate that Rachmaninov was right when he said, "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music."

My opinion on this has changed a great deal over the years. When I was a student I was constantly searching for THE correct way to play things. I listened to recordings, read books, followed my teacher’s suggestions etc. All of this was useful and I did well but sometimes I was not sure that my interpretation was right and as a result the performance was not convincing.

I remember the subject of ‘authenticity’ being very prominent at college. It was fashionable to attempt to play as the composer intended. I think this is a modern phenomenon. In the early part of the 20th Century, performers would have played how they wanted to with much less regard to the origins of the music. This is evident when you listen to early recordings. It also shows up in over edited scores. I teach students to adhere to what is on the page by and large but this only works if you use a reliable edition of the music.

It is virtually impossible to be truly authentic when you play on a modern piano. The sound is too far removed from the instruments used at the time of composition. I feel it is more appropriate to use your instrument in a musical way. This is why I use the sustain pedal when playing Bach. If I feel it enhances the music I will use it.

The solution I have found over the years is to go with what you feel. Take the time to gather all the information so that you can make an informed decision. I want my students to listen to my views as an experienced musician, learn about the characteristics of music through time, follow directions from the score etc. Then it is important that they add some of their own personality and individuality to the interpretation. If you try to play in a way which doesn’t suit you it will never work.

By the way, are we talking specifically about the piano or music in general? So much of the repertoire we play on the piano was intended to mimic vocal or instrumental music. You have to take this into consideration if you want to get to the bottom of what the composer was after.

Well said, Chris. I too, use the pedal for Bach in many places (though not to make it muddy), because I think if Bach had a pedal and a modern piano, he'd use it that way. And if it moves the audience, why not? That is the ultimate goal, isn't it? To communicate a feeling or expression to an audience? Even if we happen to be the only audience available.

Dear Morodiene and other Teachers. You have brought a soft smile to this old girls face so often with your responses to extreme laughter, some of you are really fun...The classical member students forum response were very interestig... They know this was asked of you on the Teacher's Forum and they very good sports to enter their thinking. Mostly I wonder if I am correct to now think the high middle road is the standard of the academics herein? Keep the composer in mind but do not be a parrot? I loved this remark. Input please? Thank you in advance for your input. Sandy B

I think you'll find as many opinions on this as there are pianists . Do what works for you, and if you perform, what works for your audiences (within reason!). But I think you'll find a lot of people don't go to the extremes of either end of the discussion. Btu we have seen posted here some people who are very strict in adhereing to what they think the composer meant, and the truth of it is, we only have the notes on the page to go by. Perhaps that is a good thing, so we can be free to be musicians as well.

As a further contribution to this thread, I am posting this interpretation of a very popular and famous Bach Prelude that, I am certain, will have some of you purists ranting and raving at me for defiling Bach's musical intent. However, oddly enough, it makes me, and most people who listen to it, feel very good. I feel the rubato, pedalling and dynamic changes lend it a certain emotional quality that the original is lacking. Maybe, if Bach had had access to the instruments we have available to us today, he might have written more like this.....we'll never know. Anyway, let the fireworks begin:

Bach Prelude #1

Hate it!

What is with the pausing at the end of each measure? It just sounds like poor sight reading. Rubato is all about push and pull. The borrowed time should always be payed back at some point and it should be clear what the time signature is.

It even has the extra measure. :rolleyes:

Not for me I am afraid, but if people enjoy it then who am I to argue?

The pausing at the end of the measure is to allow the listener to hear, and enjoy, the tonal properties and sustain of the piano. Like I said, I knew this would elicit a firestorm, but, so be it..........I happen to hate the original version. Much too rigid and lifeless. But I do appreciate your opinion and input. (By the way, I wasn't sight reading). I do think, however, that this illustrates the difference between people who listen to music to analyze it for virtues or shortcomings, versus those that just "go with the feeling" it evokes. Of course, it can't evoke a good feeling in someone who can't get past its deviations from the "norm". I think that that is what this whole discussion comes down to, which is why I posted this recording.

OOOOOps, sorry.

If I had known it was your own recording I would have been much more tactful. In fact it might please you to know that I thought it was a professional recording.

No offence meant.

Aside from the pauses I did not have a problem with the more subtle use of rubato. Let me try to explain my views on the pauses. I feel that a pause is most effective at moments of harmonic tension or when a melodic phrase seems to pose a question. In this case I really feel that the music should be allowed to flow naturally.

If we were to..............

speak like this it................

could be a....................

bit irritating.

I did find moments in the recording, especially at the start, a bit like this.

I also don't think that this piece needs to be played in a boring and lifeless way. Some people seem to feel that baroque music should be very strict and lacking in any expression. "The harpsichord had no dynamic variation so you mustn't use the piano in this way.", is a phrase I have often heard. I could not disagree more. Use the instruments capabilities to the full as long as the result is musical.

You do play very well in general. I am afraid I just didn't find the pauses musical. But you know you can't please everyone.

I took no offence. I appreciate your comments and do understand where you are coming from on this. Thanks.
Dan

CC2: thank you very much for posting that! I have a few comments.

First, for Chris H.: Actually, rubato means literally to steal. There is no take and give back.

However, I agree that a flow must be kept in a piece, but bravo on the attempt to play this musically. Towards the end, it gets a bit repetitive, however. I quickly made this recording to demonstrate a different way of incorporating rubato (it is by no means definitive, just another view):
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=EE6FD8560755C568

By the way, this was just a run-through, and not something I practiced, so forgive the mistakes .

Sorry for the double-post. But Chris H.: we do pause as we speak, but in appropriate places. We need to breathe, or allow a pause for better understanding. If someone spoke with no pauses, it would be harder to understand. Pauses are so important that we allow for them even in writing with commas and other punctuation. I dont mean to pick on you, but I don't think taking pauses is wrong, but it must be appropriately placed. So in a sense, I agree with what you said.

Morodienne, you performance was thoughtful for sure. The top line made by each high note of the figure was inconsistent though. Bach is a world within worlds.

Thanks! Good point about the top line. If I were to seriously record this, I'd make sure that was clearer.