Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Method book for serious students? (link to PDF file of the entire book inluded)

Both hands play the same notes, in octaves. And both in the treble clef. Five-finger position.

I fail to see anything unsual here. Used as a suppliment, it might work well for some children. As a stand-alone method there are serious holes. At best you well get excellent counters with well-trained fingers.
There are many other ways of getting students to understand note values. I understand what the method is trying to teach. I just think there are better ways to do it.

.

MA - what you're hearing from the teachers on this forum is that this book is that bad! Fine teachers, over the past 150 years, have made extensive investigations on how to teach, how to teach piano, how students learn, how students learn piano, and the results of these efforts are found in modern texts. And not to forget that the modern piano was just forming at the time of Beyer's demise.

All of which is not to say that there are not some useful tunes contained in it. But I would certainly take a hard, critical look at a teacher who is not aware of 150 years progress.

John, if this book is really as bad as you think, why is it still popular in some Asian countries and used in Spain?

A teacher who is still using this book today is not necessarily unaware of all other method books out there. He may think it's the best choice for his students and he's experienced enough to avoid the "pitfalls" and plug the holes. He may think the merits of the book outweigh its weaknesses. He probably teaches the contents of the book out of sequence and supplement it with repertoire. He may often use a bottom-up approach (induction) with his young students to foster independent thinking.

On the other hand, I have seen young children taught mainly with today's popular method books (Faber, Suzuki, Alfred, etc.) for 0.5-1.5 years... Well, I don't want to sound bashing and offend anyone.

MA -

I am a parent and student. I think the consensus among the teachers who post here is that some of the contemporary piano methods (Faber, Snell, Hal Leondard) do a better job at getting students launched than some of the older methods.

Any method can get good results with the right teacher. Some excellent teachers use no standard method at all, but guide students through pieces they have arranged, or through selections from the educational literature.

Good teachers supplement and adapt their main method to meet the needs of a variety of student goals and learning styles.

The proof is in the playing. I would ask how well a specific teacher's students play, not how students using methods A,B, or C play.

I assume your son loves piano and piano lessons. I also assume he is progressing well if he plowed through this book and into the sonatina literature in just a few months! That's quite an accomplishment. It look me a few years to do that, but at 50 with a bunch of my own kids and a full time job, I admit to being slower than most children.

I personally would have found the method frustrating. I guess the method works for your son and your teacher's students. And if the teacher gets most of his students into the literature that quickly, maybe the method doesn't matter.

Dorrie,

Well said!

Yes, my son loves piano and piano lessons, but he also loves too many other distractions: TV, video games, toys, reading, chess, sports - anything that's fun. His teacher has pushed him really hard, and this book is one tool to do so. With a different teacher and one of the contempory method books, he would probably be still playing simple chidren's songs now.

Other students of his age (5-7 years old) will usually finish this book within a year and start with sanatinas, one movement first, then two, and finally all three movements.

This book certainly looks itimidating and no doubt would require more work from the teacher and the parent. Not everything is spelled out nicely or in a logical order. I am not advocating this book. Just want to share it with the wonderful teachers on this forum.

Beyer is very popular in Taiwan and China. After a couple of months lesson with beginners, most teachers (I would say more than 90%) will start to use Beyer (the two-book version mentioned by AZNpiano) as technique book. After Beyer, then it's Czerny 599, 849, 299 and 740. Bach is introduced along with Czerny 599. Sonatina will wait till the latter part of Czerny 599 when the student's technique is ready and hands are large enough to reach 8th.

Let me go back to this:
I don't like Clark, and I don't particularly like Faber, but please don't make the mistake of assuming that these books or other methods are the reason why some teachers are good and others are not.

It's what is done with the methods that is important. I would suggest that it is not the book itself that produces the success but the creativity, experience and hard work of the teacher in combination with students that are willing to quality work.

I agree.

I just want to clarify that I wasn't criticising my daughter's first teacher. She did a good job. Probably she was not aware of Beyer or thought it would be too demanding for my daughter. From a hindsight, my daughter would have progressed much faster if her first teacher had supplemented RCM and Clark with Beyer instead of Suzuki and Faber.

It depends on what the child does at home. What kind of discipline do you think the children in Taiwan and China experience versus the discipline here in the United States? If I showed this book to any of my students they'd flatly refuse to do it. Build the same exercise into a song, that'd be different.

Not to mention that in Taiwan and China there is a serious love affair with the Baroque and Classical. As AZNpiano has said, there needs to be more 20th century, as well as post-Romantic, Impressionist, and contemporary.

MA -

I found this older thread of yours

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/27/2398.html#000017

I think a five year old playing sonatinas less than 6 months into lessons is such an unusual case that I would be hesitant to draw any conclusions about ANY method based on that sample.

Assuming he's playing well, you simply have an a child who is progressing very quickly. I wouldn't be too harsh on your daughter's teacher or assume the differences in their progression has anything to do with their teachers or methods.

Dorrie

The Beyer book is contemporary to the Hohmann "Klavierschule" which I inherited and of the same nationality. While I know nothing of Beyer, I read the extensive preamble by Hohmann which includes his pedagogical ideas, as well as who he expects to use his book, how he expects it to be used, and for which kinds of students. I can see a similar setup in Beyer (though Hohmann seems better in many ways) and can't help thinking that there are some similar ways of thinking. Has anyone noticed that when the LH is introduced in the treble clef, 3 on G is emphasized? There is a reason.

It would be foolish for me as a student to assess the merits of this old book. However I cannot help noticing the statements that G major is not introduced until about the second year, when in fact the student is playing to a G major teacher accompaniment in the beginning one-handed period. The first two-handed piece in G major is # 11. It uses bass clef only. Czerny introduced one clef at a time as well so that in the beginning you are playing LH in the treble clef.

When I look at Hohmann, it would not be a method in the modern sense, since Hohmann expected teachers to have their own methodology as highly trained teachers, but use his book as a tool. Might Beyer, his contemporary, have had the same expectations? Did Beyer also write how he wanted his book to be used? For example, I would find Hohmann incomplete without first reading his lengthy preamble. It is not as transparent as modern books which seem to explain everything throughout.

MA - I wrote:

I think my post answers your question. This is not one text among many equals. There are good, there are bad, there are new, there are outdated. There have actually been improvements in teaching and methods. Whether a teacher chooses to learn them and to use them is another issue.

Why do some third world countries still use 150 year old training materials? Hard to say. Ignorance, perhaps? Free of copyright issues, perhaps? The students in the USA are growing up in households with large screen tvs, ipods, computers, etc. Presentation is important.

Along that line, I have a very talented 2nd grader, I mean, really talented, who asked me one lesson recently why she couldn't have pretty books like the other students. She could play anything in the Beyer text, but emotionally, she needs something more than B&W text.

KS - just a quick comment. Playing in G major with accidentals written in is not the same as reading in G major. I was trained as a beginning pianist on a similar approach and the lack of learning all the keys early on became quite an albatross. As a young adult, it took me years to overcome this deficiency.

This is OT, but why do you think Taiwan or Spain is "some third world countries"? I am from Taiwan and I know Taiwan can't be called a third world country if its GDP is ranked top 20 in the world. My family was just a middle class family and I grew up with TV (not large screen though) and computer and that was 20 (or 30) years ago.
If you have been to China recently, I don't think you would call China a third country either.

Czerny is also about 150 years old, I know in Japan they are very popular technique books just like in Taiwan, would you call Japan a third world country?

As far as I know, teachers in Taiwan or China do use other method/theory books along with Beyer/Czerny for beginners. So Beyer/Czerny are just technique books, not the only book used for beginners.

Christ, you mean no home cinema!? And you call that civilized?

My son is no average (now) 6-year old child, but he is no child prodigy, either. Although he can easily practice piano for 3+ hours at the conservatory on his lesson day (1.5 hours before, 1 hour during, and 1 hour after his lesson) -- and we have a hard time stopping him, especially after his lesson -- he can neglect it at home for up to a few days.

My daughter may be different, but she could have done better if she had been trained with a similar book. Before she joined the conservatory 1.5 years ago, she was playing Minuet in Gm by Petzold, the 1st movement of Bethoven Sonatina in G, and Level 2 RCM repertoire. Her teacher immediately put her into repertoire-only training and gave her Invention #1, a Diabelli Sonatina, a Chopin polonaise, and other duet and trio (piano, violin, and cello) pieces. She was 7 years old at the time, and it was such a leap of faith for me. For example, the ornaments in Invention #1 were tricky for her. She handled it very well and a few months later was selected (behind screen) by judges of Junior Bach.

Because my son has been trained with this book, I expect a much smoother ride for him. His teacher has pushed him hard but never rushed him. He didn't get to pass the exercises easily. In his last lesson, he played an exercise that introduces melodic A minor. He played everything correctly but didn't pass it because he didn't think on his own about the mode change from minor to major then back to minor and how the music should sound differently accordingly. This kind of training is probably impossible with today's popular method books.

And hand-held video games, cell phones, and so on. Speaking of distractions at home...

I actually said "Asian countries" and meant Japan (this book is still popular there), Taiwan, and Mainland China. "Asian countries" is not equal to "third world countries".

Presentation is important.

Shall we add colorful cartoon pictures to Shakespear? I have a collection of his works and hope my children will not refuse to read them because the presentation is dull.

Along that line, I have a very talented 2nd grader, I mean, really talented, who asked me one lesson recently why she couldn't have pretty books like the other students. She could play anything in the Beyer text, but emotionally, she needs something more than B&W text.

Bribe her with Barbie. I am sure she will stop protesting.