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Isn't it amazing how amplifying details can completely change the situation?

Many of us would have responded quite differently had we known more initially. Of course, the amplifying material does change the response.

At this point in the discussion, I'd probably just call the other teacher, tell her how much I appreciated the DVD and my student's opportunity to perform, but add, that I would have liked to attend if at all possible, so in the future, could she include me in the loop. And, oh, by the way, it would also be appreciated if the program would indicate that Arthur's teacher is so and so, and probably she should extend that courtesy to any other teacher whose student is performing.

Mary (tickler), you make some interesting points. When one of my students perform publicly, they are, for better or worse, representing my studio and my teaching. Naturally, I'd rather them be well prepared and make a strong impression. I can help them! This is my job!

I am not quite to the point where I would "prohibit" a student from playing a venue, but on the other hand, most teachers know whether the student is well matched to the venue being considered.

Generally speaking, we engage masterclasses for our students, and make sure the teacher knows the material the student will be presenting.

Better teachers are leading students down a path of discovery, learning, and mastery. Occasional detours can be invigorating, but they can also be devestating or have negative results. Masterclasses can be very tough on a student's ego. And sometimes, the masterclass teacher may be teaching or approving a technique you want your student to avoid until they are more mature. Thus, caution is indicated.

This story has put some interesting things on the forefront that we usually don't think about.

Recitals have two roles. It is important for the student's sake to have recitals, and as many as possible. Musicianship is about performing, and a musician who can't performing through inexperience is missing something. So recitals are necessary for the student's sake.

However, recitals are also a form of advertisement. If a student plays badly then it's negative advertisement and if a student plays well everyone will assume that he is playing well becuase of his hard work and the guidance of his teacher.

In regards to taking lessons with other teachers - it is not advisable as a beginner because you don't now when different approaches and methods could clash and confuse. However, opportunities such as masterclasses come up, and it can happen that a teacher is weak in some area as the student progresses which a consulting teacher or similar can help with in which case you have a delicate situation. Or you may have a teacher who is more performance oriented, another who is technically oriented and the combination may work well. I have heard of advanced students studying with two teachers for that reason, but both teachers knowing about each other and approving. Then, I hear that there are camps and masterclasses. I'd be cautious on the premise that too many cooks spoil the broth, however.

John, we posted at the same time.
Thank you for that insight.

We as teachers need to keep awareness of those students who are capable of making the long term grade through the study of music and work diligently with them, guiding in many ways besides where the music carries the interest.

We have a musical family in our studios, our students, their families, and the teacher.

We are also like mentors to the student. We are responsible for what we do. In return for I offer music education, artistry preparation, and theoretical insight, music appreciation, music history in my teaching. In depth education.

If you want casual lessons that you control so I make no demands on you, have no input on expressing what I want, and you vote with your feet with any and all of your teachers when you were tweaked with me, I frankly, do not want to have you in my studio. In my experience, with these situations, no one gains a thing. There is no responsibility to each other, there is no communication between us, there is no relationship being created.

If I can't give my being to you, and you are not willing to receive it, and you want only what you want to do, please see the nearest music store where they will agreeably meet your needs to the best of their ability for a price.

My time is valuable, and I choose to spend it with people who have an appreciation of the continuance of the art form of being a musician, and all things that it demands.

If this is offending someone, good. I am as offended as you, but I'm offended about what you think piano lessons are about.

This is education and art at it's best - regardless of the kind of music we choose to play. I like and teach all kinds of music, with a few exceptions.

Be careful in shopping for your teacher in the first place, so all of this potential conflict comes out before you get started. I want to spare you the problems we will have together, and I want to spare myself, too.

I'm not being a smart a** here, this is my basic stance, and has been for a very long time, about teaching music.

Opinions differ among us because of the role we play in it. Each person must search and find their own place of comfort.

As to why we would be difficult about having our students performing somewhere, I'll just say I have reasons that many people would not understand, saying: "What's the big deal?"

If someone wants not to sign my contract, I'm glad they are able to refuse and find the circumstances they need. I will trust their judgment that it's not right for them. We are actually helping each other out arriving at that conclusion.

What might have been our cooperation and respect between each other has been sacrificed, and we will never know, what "the road less traveled" might have brought to us.

This is a piano teacher's forum that this is being posted into. I would like to feel understood in what I post about my philosophies concerning what the piano lesson experience involves. This is who I am, and what I believe, and it's my responsibility to keep this "oath" or "credo" to myself during my lifetime.

Betty

Here's another situation where a student might want to take lessons from 2 different teachers.

Student #1 has teacher #1 for their regular lessons.

But then student #1 starts playing duets -- outside of their lessons -- with another player, student #2. This student #2 takes lessons from teacher #2.

The 2 students decide that they need an occasional lesson specifically for their duet playing, independent of their other studies. So they schedule a lesson with one of the teachers. Does the other teacher have grounds for complaint?

This is an actual example. I'm doing this currently -- playing duets with a friend and taking an occasional lesson with someone other than my primary piano teacher.

My teacher knows about the situation and duet the lessons. I've kept her fully informed about the duets and duet lessons. But I can imagine that others might not feel the need to do so.


Mary

Betty, I have read your post over and over, and I am in confusion. I have even parsed it and I can't make sense of it. You seem to be so angry about something.

I thought that maybe it was the reaction to the "do not perform" contract that people reacted to, but you didn't even author that part.

There's a scenario of students being angry with teachers, doing whatever they want ... tons of stuff, and I see no signs of any of that in anything that has been written.

The non-performance clause is not yours, so I cannot ask you about it. It is possible that "performance" is understood differently by different people.

I visited elderly mother at Christmas and acquaintances asked for a musical evening. I ended up rehearsing and performing. There was a Haendel duet, Bach Ciaconne, piano performance by someone, violin solo. It was fairly formal affair so it was a performance.

Many people who take up music are by nature performers. Some of us already do perform. To suggest that for the years that they study with a particular teacher they would be forbidden to perform anywhere sets up a combination of panic and suffocation. You cannot have meant that.

Betty, nobody can be rejecting your policies because they are not sufficiently known. A potential student would have to be in your studio, discussing every item carefully with you - not reading a quick sketch over the Internet.

Betty,

I, too, don't understand the thrust of your latest post. It sounds like you're angry, but I'm not sure about what.

I'd appreciate it if you'd clarify.


Mary

I think what Betty was reacting to was the sheer lack of loyalty and dedication some piano students (or parents) exhibit. She was probably connecting with some personal experience. I know I had dealt with it before.

I know I have high expectations from my students because I expect that much from myself as a teacher. If I put in all this effort, only to find out the student has been seeing another teacher and/or performing in a venue where he could be mistaken as another teacher's student (all done without my knowledge), I'd be angry, too.

Note--I use the phrase "without my knowledge," not "without my permission." I'm sure if one of my students lets me know he's going to play at a talent show or another public performance, I'd be thrilled. But first I'd make sure he's ready to play that piece. Then I'd send him my blessings. Permission was never really the issue; it's knowledge.

O 'tis true, 'tis true.

One of my colleagues (who thinks and teaches like I do) once said there's a piano teacher for everyone. If the student doesn't follow her demanding instructions, she drops the student from her studio.

That's a rather long period of deception. I'm glad the student finally came clean with it. Hopefully you have resolved the situation in a positive and professional manner.

Thank you, AZN, for your explanation.

I'm sure I'm gonna get a ton of people mad at me, but...

I really don't see the issue. I'm neither a student or a teacher, but if I had a teacher, it is just that... a teacher. I pay for lessons, and that is all. If my teacher ever had an issue with me playing or taking lessons from someone else, I would most likely get another teacher... I also wouldn't feel I had to tell them any of it... it's my business.

That being said, I wouldn't feel bad if my teacher had an issue with it, and decided to leave me.

Ok, scream away

Deception is tricking another or lying. Unless the student was asked if they ever preform elsewhere, how was the student deceiving?

On most issues, people usually obtain second opinions. On this board, people post questions or ask feedback on their music assignment, performance, etc. Isn't this the same? Asking the opinion of people here on the board as opposed to asking another teacher for feedback?

I agree this is probably a poor choice by a student because teachers usually have a plan and need to be fully informed to plan properly but to reject a student for this? Also, most would not even understand why this may be a harmful idea and could do this earnestly to improve.

[Billyshears] Before making such a statement, get to know what good private music teaching entails and what kind of work gets carried out with what kind of interaction between student and teacher. I have been self taught, I have been taught, and I have taught one on one. There is such a thing as "just a teacher" ... unfortunately.

Music teaching is more than getting the hang of things. Knowledge and skills are developed and this is a process. That process can be interfered with by the student himself. A second teacher, especially in the early stages, can undo or interfere with what the main teacher is trying to accomplish. There is good reason for some of these objections.

Believe it or not, I was not angry in my last post. I am affirmative for what I do at piano lessons. Piano lessons can change our lives - in incredible ways. It's education and learning skills that transfers to other academics.

Music makes demands of us. Relationships do too.

If I thought I was so unimportant to my students that they thought what I want from them in return for our collaboration together is to take the study of music seriously, agree to the policy I have, and when terminating, let's say good bye with pleasure and gratitude for our times together.

Let's not drop the teacher on her head. It's that simple. It went on when I became a piano teacher in 1971, and it still goes on in 2008.

I would like to see more respect for piano teachers in private music teaching. I insist on it in my studio, I groom it, I say thank you for it. Anyone not getting that message needs to be elsewhere.

Music study and music making is life forming. Read Plato - the Universe! Music and the Universe!

Betty

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I'm not sure what was going on today in this thread.

I responded to things that I saw or felt about the topic and the problems of expectations and the discussion of what teachers of MTNA would call "ethics".

I am maintaining that being responsible for helping someone reach their path to musicianship is a huge pledge on the part of the teacher.

If I think of an example to explain what I think my role is, I would say that it's like being the captain of the ship, the principal of the high school, the chief of the department at the hospital. In many areas of professionalism there are standards and meters of evaluation. I subscribe to standards. The military certainly has accountability in it's system.

If piano lessons fall only into the realm of socialization and entertainment, it becomes all about the student and his preferences, and what he wants to buy.

I am saying that on the other hand, teachers have a bigger thing to offer according to their capacities and specializations. We certainly need to be aware of what the students interests are and what they are bringing to us when they "apply" to our music studios.

I feel that I have to defend the attributes of quality teaching here in Piano World. Isn't that ridiculous!

I am not concerned how it looked. While composing a posting, it is possible that others post during the time my posting is being written. This makes it appear that a person is missing the point. Maybe the point had not been made yet. I don't know what the problem is.

I an not being hostile, I am representing myself as I said before.

Betty

Betty, I erased my post because things were getting too tangled up, but now I see you are responding to what I wrote.

"How it looked" does not refer to your post:

1. Threads are dialogues. What a person posts is assumed to be a response to what the people before wrote.

2. Before your post, other people wrote about things. One wondered whether volunteering to perform in an old age home, and the question of being free to gain performance experience was put on the table. I also had some thoughts.

3. Your post, which you explain was a general sentiment about roles & responsibilities of teachers IN GENERAL followed these first posts.

4. Therefore in seemed as though what you were writing was in response to what others had written. That is how ** it looked **, because your post was placed right after the previous posts.

Your post painted a portrait of students angry at teachers and deliberately walking out on them or doing things with other teacher, not doing the work they were asked to do. You proposed non-communication, non-cooperation and other unhappy things. However, you were writing about the GENERAL SCENE.

Yet realize that since your post followed the post of two students who presented their thoughts, it would seem that you were responding to what they were saying. Thus, somebody saying "surely it's ok to volunteer in a hospital" was followed by this disastrous scene, as though the mere wish to volunteer in a hospital, and even daring to ask that question, meant all thos horrid things you wrote about.

Can you follow? Your post was not in isolation. It is seen as part of a dialogue. But you did not mean it as a dialogue. You meant it as a general statement. Its position confused people.

Thanks everyone for all your input!

lalakeys, I especially liked your advice!

My point is this. Please feel free to include my student in your recital to give him/her more exposure to performing. But have the courtesy to announce that this student is a "guest" and name me as his teacher. Otherwise, you are claiming that student as your own, and that is not fair play!

I have never been good with confrontation, but I agree with lalakeys, and think I will send an email.

Will send the email now just after I have a cigarette. (And I don't even smoke!) . . . Yet!