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Joined: May 2008
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KS.. exactly why I posted here.. To see if some other teachers can clue me on how to address this.. I have already tried the simple spontaneous way and gotten responses similar to what you anticipated in your post.
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I guess it depends what the goal of the "talk" is. I took it as a way to get the teacher to be softer (am I saying the right thing here?) so that the OP can then start conversing with the teacher during regular lessons. Then, during the lessons, she can ask questions like, why can't I chew gum and what/how exactly should I be practicing to be effective.
As a teacher, I actively seek feedback from my students and even stop to ask if they understand WHY I am asking them to do something. When the student understands the why, they are more likely do to as told. At times, they are even able to suggest an alternative. I believe that as long as the parties are able to communicate, the rest will eventually work out.
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guys.. I am so.. beyond caring about the gum.. I just do not want him constantly hovering , loud and stormy if I trip on something or if I am not 100% memorized etc.. it is just too intense and I am not a fan of the "method" of longer assignments and exercises if my performance is not perfect .. I am sounding like an idiot again.. it si not that I don't want to learn. I want to learn differently
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Elise - I'm not a teacher. I'm a serious adult student with a son who went on to music studies in university so I was putting myself into those kinds of shoes. I didn't mean to misrepresent myself.
I would think, though, that this teacher's priority is for you to become a proficient pianist as well as a musician. You should know first of all whether these are your priorities. If you don't know what your priorities are, that is normal, and your teacher may even find that to be normal. If you think at all that these might be your priorities, or that you would like to give it a shot, then you and your teacher immediately have common ground.
Something like: I would like to do this but it's not working for me. I'm intimidated in lessons and that is making me hard to do well. - Anything about practicing/preparing?
The fact that you are not performing up to snuff in his eyes is sure to come up. So why is that and what can be done about it? I almost suspect that your early bad start could have an impact on on what you are able to achieve in practicing. To be honest though, homework and all, an hour a day hardly sounds like anything if you are pursuing piano seriously. My perspective is as a student, and as the parent of a student who has gone on.
Is it possible that practicing is not enjoyable because of difficulties so that an hour is all you can manage? This could be the beginning of real working together with this teacher if he sees you really want to solve things. And if he does, he may soften and try to make it easier for you. It may be that he doesn't realize that he is intimidating you.
A serious teacher who is taking you as seriously as this one is wants you to be taking yourself and your musicianship equally seriously. When he sees that the atmosphere tends to change. You must be honest with yourself too.
You want to be listening to each other. I hope this occurs. I wish you all the best.
(It would be good to hear from teachers - who are probably waiting for the right moment).
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There it is. You want to learn differently. And that is absolutely your prerogative. His method is stopping your progress, which you want to maintain. Maybe a different teaching approach is your headliner I recommended you develop on page 4.
You need a different way, and at this point in your life you know something about your learning style. If he can't offer it, then it's time for a another teacher.
As needed to back up your point, be ready to explain the effects his methods have on your playing and progress.
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Originally posted by Elise_B: guys.. I am so.. beyond caring about the gum.. I just do not want him constantly hovering , loud and stormy if I trip on something or if I am not 100% memorized etc.. it is just too intense and I am not a fan of the "method" of longer assignments and exercises if my performance is not perfect .. I am sounding like an idiot again.. it si not that I don't want to learn. I want to learn differently Elise - student to student, now. What you should address specifically is "loud and stormy". It is reasonable for a grown male teacher to understand that a young female student might be intimidated by "loud and stormy". This is something he may be willing to change. For the other things I suggest that you change your perception of them, and USE them for your benefit. Let me explain: "HOVER" - a hovering teacher is a teacher who is working very hard by being extremely attentive to every sound you make on your behalf. He is the opposite of a lazy teacher who does not care. You are fortunate. While he is hovering, he is picking up your mistakes. Change that perception: he is finding the places where you can become a superb pianist, by improving those areas. When he criticizes, see that as coins of wisdom that will make you grow. How will you use this criticism to your benefit? Exploring this a bit further: When he criticizes, do you know what to do with it? Do you know how to fix what he wants you to fix? If you do not, you may ask him, "Could you explain to me what I need to do to improve this?" Before you ask that question ....... make sure that you have practiced. Secondly, make sure that you have practiced *what* he told you to practice, and *how* he told you to practice. Teachers are too polite to roll their eyes. The answer to "What do I need to do to improve this" may be in the "what and how". - You might even come into a lesson and say "I had difficult with xyz which you have been asking me to do. Can you help me find out what is wrong?" (depending how he is as a teacher) This is assuming that you have sincerely worked on it. This question will indicate to him that you have tried to benefit from his advice. LONG ASSIGNMENT-PUNISHMENTS It's his method and you won't change it. Take the sting out of the punishment by turning it into an opportunity. Do the assignment well, to the best of your ability, FOR YOU. This assignment can turn you into a better musician: use it to your benefit. Get back at your teacher, if you will, be considering his punishment as a reward, and embracing the assignment. You'll end up working in harmony with him because you'll improve. if I trip on something or if I am not 100% memorized etc Why do you trip on it? Does he make you nervous by hovering and shouting? When you practice at home, do you play this flawlessly without tripping on it? If you have a "trip on" area - that's something you need to work on, or need help with. If you are not 100% memorized, why is that? Should you be? Can you? If not, why not? Do you have strategies for memorizing? I want to learn differently I can understand "learn" two ways. "Learn" can mean during lessons. Do you mean that you want to learn differently in lessons? Or do you mean when you practice? The real learning does not happen during a lesson. It happens when you practice. How is your practicing? Do you want to learn differently during practicing time? As a fellow student I have a suggestion. Make two lists. In one list write about your playing. Write down everything that you do well. Work hard to remember anything your teacher has told you that you do correctly or well. Also write down in what kinds of things you have difficulty, or you don't do well. On another sheet write down everything that your teacher keeps reminding you to do. Pay attention ESPECIALLY to little piddly "unimportant" things. The little piddly unimprtant things that they annoyingly keep stressing tend to be the key to suddenly being able to play better. We think the "important" things should get our attention. Or we are so busy with the music that we don't have time for them so they never get done: posture, feet, legato, timing, tone.... If there are things he repeats a lot, how much time are you spending on these consciously while you practice? You mentioned "tone" - do you work specifically on tone when you practice, with the intention of bringing out tone, and only that, for any period of time in your practicing? Does this lead you anywhere? (I have a thought) P.S. I am also a former teacher who still teaches one on one, but not a music teacher. It is my belief that the greatest part of learning happens outside of the studio through your practicing - that is an empowering thing.
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There it is. You want to learn differently. That is your prerogative. Define learn, and where it happens.
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To gain mastery or knowledge, and it happens everywhere. What is your point?
Here, it's not happening much during lessons, and because of the emotional effects, the current method will lead to worse performance. So now it's un-learning.
Then there's spillover. After the lesson, the whole miserable experience of the last hour will stick in the mind while she's moving on and thinking about other things, like school assignments.
Then there's idle time. She wants to play better, but everytime she thinks of playing she thinks of the lesson and its effect. Where's the enjoyment? That needs to fit somewhere.
What becomes the point of enduring these lessons?
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To gain mastery or knowledge, and it happens everywhere. What is your point?
That is not the definition of learning. That is the definition of the results of learning. Learning is an action. Elise wants to learn differently. A central issue to this situation is her "learning" - in lessons her teacher is not satisfied with what she has "learned" and that is provoking the tension (though he has a choice in how to respond). My first reaction to "I want to learn differently" was puzzlement: I thought we were talking about lessons? That is because for me learning happens during practice time. What is the relationship between studio and home? In the studio your teacher gives you indications of what to to and what to correct, and must ascertain that you have mastered it sufficiently so that you can acquire it and make it yours. You, in turn, must make certain that you can remember what you have been taught. It is part of "learning". Learning in the studio is not passive: it is not a thing being received. If a student is complaining about her teacher's actions and says "I want to learn differently" she is saying "I want to be taught differently." The choice of words also reflects a perception of what learning is. The true learning can only happen at home during practicing. 1 hour/day = 7 hours vs. 1 hour lesson. 3 hours/day = 21 hours vs. 1 hour lesson. How those hours practicing are spent is crucial. How effective your practicing is depends on what you have absorbed from your lesson, how you apply it, WHAT you choose to apply (hence my question about the piddlies). What your teacher is able to teach you depends on what you have "learned" during practicing. During practicing at home, you are not applying what you "learned" in the studio. You are learning. The difficulties hover around this as much as they do around behaviour. One of the possible outcomes is that the lessons will improve and change in their nature because the teacher will change his behaviour. However part of the key to his behaviour has to do with the performance and abilities of the student. The two things interrelate. The key to a teacher is also a student's willingness to learn, I would think. Obviously intimidation is not a good way of making that willingness to learn happen.
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Vow, this thread has become really interesting.. I'd like to point out a couple of things as I, very subjectively, see them: 1) I did not read anywhere from Elise that the man is anyway inappropriate. Still, I must read that it is implied that he is "abusive", or similar things. This is unfair and probably a projection on the poor man of bad experiences someone had with a teacher (actually all of us had at some time, I suppose). Let's stick by the facts: the man does not tolerate shorts, chewing gum, bad preparation of lesson, and would like that his students do as he says, and says so. 2) This man sends the students to a separate practice room before lesson begins; gives them a Boston to practice; is extremely attentive during lesson and insists on technique in every detail; is obviously a perfectionist and much in love with his work, the contrary of the frustrated old woman unable to retire described above; he is so good at what he does and so passionate about his job, that he even checks what a student does in the adjacent piano practice after the lesson's end: does it get more committed than that! He is very professional in his relationship with his students: no shorts please, no chewing gum - which, beside being dangerous, is not very respectful -, attention to important things like posture, etc. I find this very correct, and very commendable. 3)Then, being a human being, this man is not perfect; apparently he is a bit harsh at times, but hey, the student tend to be not entirely prepared, to begrudge having to give away chewing gum, to not understand the importance of posture, technique, little details etc.; again: he will have his own shortcomings as everyone has, but from what I read it seems to me that he wants a certain level of commitment, and does not get it; and when you are committed enough that you listen at how your students play Hanon in the other room boy, *that* must be frustrating.... 4) If the man is half the perfectionist and professional man that I think he is, I'd say he is suffering as much as you are and when your father speaks to him he will jump at the occasion and happily dump you, which by what I gather he would much like to do but for the friendly relationship between your respective families. Frankly this is the advice that I would give to your father, and to him: let's put an end to it, probably it is no one's "fault", it's juts that two worlds have met here which have different rules. This is not your chosen profession from what I gather, so what's the fuss, life's too short for such unnecessary worries; farewell and amen, again I think he will be relieved as much as you so there will be winners only. Don't get me wrong, I do think (from what you say) that he is an excellent teacher and a blessing. But hey, you are 14 and have the age and the right to make your own choices (and in case, as life will be, mistakes...) if you really want; again it is not like dropping from college, tell your father you should be considered mature enough to make your own choices and run your own risks, even of doing something wrong.... My forecast is that the immediate, understandable relief will be probably followed by disappointment at the next teachers, who might in my eyes *easily* not have the same level of competence, dedication, professionalism. Still, even in that case it will have been a valuable lesson, learned at an age when mistakes are not irreparable. Wish you all the best, but frankly I would be delighted (at 42, pretty stubborn, proud more than I should and not at all inclined to be bullied) to have him as my teacher myself and I'd consider it a mark of honour and a reflection on me as a student.
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)
Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin
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My forecast is that the immediate, understandable relief will be probably followed by disappointment at the next teachers, who might in my eyes *easily* not have the same level of competence, dedication, professionalism. ... Which is precisely what I would like to see avoided. I think it can be avoided. The answer may well be in the "piddlies" of my question, and what can be done with it next.
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Key:
What I'm rather fixated on here is the effects of the lesson, particularly on outside-the-studio learning and enjoyment generally. I won't get pedantic about this.
She said she wants to learn differently. I took this to mean simply that the lessons she receives now are thoroughly disagreeable, because of her explanations of her experience with them. I didn't think for a moment that she thought all or most of her learning happens in that weekly one hour lesson. If you thought she felt that way, I don't know why.
As for learning being an action, of course it is. That should have been evident from the brief definition I provided.
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I'm going to take a risk here and just say what is on my mind after reading this very long thread and some of the postings.
It is where I am at the moment with Elise's situation and it probably is something I would direct to Elise's parents.
This is beginning to appear to be a "toxic" situation and I would recommend that you consider releasing your daughter from this situation and seek a new, hopeful, refreshing teacher to partner your efforts as parents, and piano student with.
Any teaching worth happening does not risk someone's suffering because of the differences in what is acceptable. I believe in rules, but those are administered with concern and to prevent an unpleasant outcome, not to undermine the person's self image.
I think some of the posting to Elise might be reevaluated as in my mind, if the relationship is not working, neither is anything else.
Betty
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Because at this very moment student and teacher are talking for the first time, a call to abandon ship leaves me uneasy. That ship may have to be abandoned, but should we not see what the talking will bring?
I see a situation come to a head, and being dealt with at this very moment. It is a hopeful thing. Were it to remain not addressed, that would be toxic. I see a teacher who is intensely dedicated to his student. I see misunderstanding between student and teacher because they have never talked. I have seen and been involved in miracles that occurred simply when a student's perception was changed. This is not a "pep talk" kind of perception. It involves getting deeper into matters of learning, understanding of goals.
The first key is for a student to understand where a teacher is coming from, what his priorities are for her, and what her role is in her own growth. This is the meeting point where student and teacher can communicate. If this first meeting point is established, the teacher also begins hearing the student.
The answer to relationships often is not within the rhealm of relationships, psychologogy, "good and bad matches" - the relationships often sour because the roles and purposes are not understood. When a student learns how to relate to what is being taught and how to apply it in practicing, all the other problems can disappear. If it remains at the level of power struggles in which either party tries to influence the behaviour of the other nothing at all is gained. If the teacher does the behaviour-changing he might get a passively obedient student achieving things but never at her true level. A modified teacher may care less than he did.
The relationship is not working because the practicing and learning part is not working. I had a very good reason to ask for the list and the identification of "piddly" things because I believe a key lies in this. When we teach we do not create relationships - we impart knowledge which is sought as much as it is imparted. When this works, the relationship takes care of itself. The frustration of the knowledge not coming across can be the "relationship problem".
Time and again I have seen "impossible relationships" turn around as soon as the understanding of learning matters became clear. The change was palpable though it took time for it to grow.
Several people have said the same thing, including respected teacher - if this teacher is left, and the underlying things are not solved, then there is a loss. What is it that this teacher is trying so desperately to bring across that he believes this student needs? Shall she go to another teacher who will leave her alone and leave her without this thing?
When you address an issue for the very first time, you do not give in immediately. AT least give it a chance - they are talking. What will come out of this talk?
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There is something I don't think anyone has asked about... Elise, you said your brother had lessons with this guy, loved him, and learned alot. You imply that you find the teacher wayyy more intimidating (to the point where it's affecting your playing during lessons) than your brother did.
I also somehow got the idea that your brother was more advanced at your age than you are (or, at least, the teacher was happier with him).
How many hours a day did your brother practice? Did he also have the homework hours you do?
Did your brother start with this teacher at an earlier age?
Do you know other students of this teacher? Do the guys generally get along better with him than the girls? Or the more gifted students of either gender?
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Poor Elise's head must be spinning. Personally, I find the discussion fascinating, and I certainly don't mean to damper the enthusiasm shown here and the very generous contributions, but I feel the need to point out that she said early today that this conversation is "way above her head" and jokingly begged for "more scolding" in its place. Let's not push her aside. I suggest trying to keep the conversation simple and to the point, if that's at all possible.
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Good point, Akira. I've edited my longy into a "."
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So it did not go so great.. I am still trying to digest all that was said. may be more later.. Thanks
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