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Joined: Dec 2007
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I can give reasons for their pertinence. Can you give reasons for them not being pertinent? Can you also give an approach or approaches toward effective memorization?
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I think you'd need to be a piano teacher/player to understand the nature of memorization on the piano. The waters just get muddied otherwise.
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Originally posted by keystring: I can give reasons for their pertinence. Can you give reasons for them not being pertinent? Can you also give an approach or approaches toward effective memorization? +1 There are millions of people who know what "not to do". There are the brave few who choose to be sepecific and explain how something can be done. Yes...we know KBK...you cannot explain how you teach over the internet because what you do with students is "magical and mysterious". We would have to come to a lesson, then our horizons would be broadened, and the magic would take place. I am in no position to guess whether your system works or not. You are probable a fine teacher. and I'm sure that some students flourish under. You should however realize, that your method of presenting yourself..."you're wrong, but I won't tell you what is right because music is too big and vast and powerful"..., precludes you from adding much value to our conversations.
Music is the surest path to excellence
Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs
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Originally posted by pianoexcellence: You should however realize, that your method of presenting yourself..."you're wrong, but I won't tell you what is right because music is too big and vast and powerful"..., precludes you from adding much value to our conversations. Conversations are they now? They seem mostly monologues from where I'm sitting. Besides, I can't help it if words mean what you want them to mean.
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Answering my own question which I admit was probably a bit rhetorical, since I did suspect it could be pertinent:
My approach in this area is the same on piano as for any other instrument. I have no difficult memorizing music, I don't need to memorize it because of a weakness in sight reading - it is effective, relatively quick, and it stays.
I offered up the contrast as food for thought in case someone may find it helpful. The singers memorized chains of notes without analysis, understanding, or phrasing and did so by rote. When I tried to approach music as they did, because I was there among them, I found it extremely difficult. When I returned to my approach, I was able to handle difficult phrases that they struggled with, and to do so in a fraction of the time. I had also memorized the entire repertoire within a few weeks.
The question is: What is it that I was doing which made it easy, and how were our approaches different? If I go to the difficult passages, I would say that I did not so much memorize a series of intervals, as to understand the structure and sense of the passage.
In a very similar fashion, I understood the repertoire as a whole. It made sense to me. There was movement from point A to point B, certain modulations and patterns that made formal and musical sense. In that sense I do not memorize chains or sequences of things. It is not quite a co-creation with the composer, but in some ways it is. You know you have an ABA pattern, that it wants to move up to the dominant over there, that this and that theme repeats itself and does various acrobatics - itself but in disguise. In playing or singing you are moving from point to point, the music "unfolds". You might have to memorize this melismatic section over here, and that strange run over there, but even those things are hovering or dancing around predictable patterns.
In one case you have committing a sequence of notes to memory without understanding or vision of any patterns. My impression was "utter meaningless", "no sense of direction" when I tried to work that way. If there is a counterpart to piano, where someone may be memorizing chains of notes, or not analyzing the music as music first, then maybe that contrasting view of two approaches can give perspective.
I know that choir is not piano, but I do also play piano. The process is the same. In some ways it's easier, because the more modern music is structured in chord progressions and then the patterns become ultra-visible.
In the course of my time at PW I have noticed that at least some teachers include analysis of the music as one of their prelimary steps. I have read that students doing such analysis already have memorized the music to some degree, though they may not be conscious of it. My experience would be in line with that.
I offered up the first choir, because this choir was actually experiencing music in a much different manner than I knew. They memorized words, and then associated melody to the words. That is a mode of learning or a mode of perception by association, and knowing that various modes of this kind exist could be a valuable tool. Can we change these modes or approach things from various angles?
Either these observations are helpful to someone, or they are not. I had enough of sense that they might be that I dared to write them down, though I must admit that the poetry of the Lost Lagoon was mostly self-indulgent whimsy.
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Originally posted by keyboardklutz: I can't help it if words mean what you want them to mean. [/QB] Communication is tricky, so you are right. Having recently studied communications in some business courses I have taken, I can appreciate what you are saying. All it means is that we need to practice. I use this forum as a means to sharpen my communication (the spelling mistakes in my last post seem to negate this statement). Give it a shot KBK.
Music is the surest path to excellence
Jeremy BA, ARCT, RMT Pianoexcellence Tuning and Repairs
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How about a shot over the bow? Piano mastery is a received tradition, even secret, as the essence can't be put in words. I'm sorry if you don't see the miracle of its transmission (what teachers do).
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I have been taught that one must know where to direct one's attention. I believe that is pertinent to this thread.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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