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I feel the need to get my two cents worth in on this discussion. I think the key to the comparisons being made here between acoustics and digitals should be similar to comparing acoustic pianos to each other. In other words, you would not fairly compare Tier 3 or 4 piano to a Tier 1. In the same vein, comparing the performance of the "average" digital to a medium quality acoustic is no contest. That being said, however, let me give my own experience here. I own three Tier one pianos that I adore, including a nine foot Mason and Hamlin, Steinway B and Bechstein A. There is nothing like playing any one of them.....HOWEVER, I also own a digital setup that is a hybrid I created for the very purpose of creating as close a substitute as possible to the experience of playing one of my acoustics. I believe I have succeeded, in that I can honestly say that when I play my digital it simulates my acoustics by about 75 to 85%. This ability did not come cheap though. I needed to combine several components that you don't normally see run together in order to get this result. Therefore, the practicality for a young student is a completely different issue.

Thank you terminaldegree, my feelings are with you.
It's absurd to me when people try to make a comparison between an acoustic piano and a digital piano. They are two completely different instruments in my mind. There is no comparison. There never will be either. I wish people would stop thinking that digitals are like real pianos. Why TRY to be like a real piano when you can buy a real piano? Sorry to digital fans, but lets get real, an acoustic piano is "alive" and ever changing. I like it when my pianos need to be tuned! I know I'm not playing a fake. Buy a real piano if you want to play piano. Let's just call digitals, digitals and pianos, pianos and leave it at that.
Since I happen to teach piano not digital piano, I want my students to be practicing on a good quality instrument where they can enjoy their practice time, develop their technical and listening skills in the most optimal way.
Thank you to those that have posted.
It sounds like Yamaha U series would be a first choice then perhaps Pearl River.
I saw and played a Pearl River grand. I think it was rather small 5'4 maybe, and it sounded pretty good. I was suprised at the price of 5,000.00.

Sure, choosing an acoustic over digital is a personal matter. But calling a digital piano a fake? It is rather funny because ABRSM allows digital pianos for certification exams up to grade 8.

TD

I have a Pearl River grand in my studio, it has been a good piano despite predictions to the contrary, maybe not the best sounding piano, but a nice feel, a very Yamaha-esque action.

One of my students has a Pearl River upright, again very solid action, especially for an upright.

The few problems I have had were handled promptly and to my satisfaction by Pearl River's customer support. I think the Pearl River would be a much etter choice than say a "Hallett Davis" or one of the other stencil pianos, a lot of these pianos are pretty bad.

zorro de piano

digitals are fine for beginners. i would recommend the Casio PX100, which is what i have. it is only $500, and weighted. easy to carry (for a full-sized keyboard!!). reliable, of course.

Gyro, i understand all of the conveniences of a digital, as i have one. i will be very glad to have it in my apartmemt next semester, because then i won't have to waste gas going to campus just to practice. i will, however, still spend about 85% of my practice time in the practice rooms or in the recital hall. digitals are not as characteristic as pianos. they are like robots compared to humans. there are nuances and small oddities about every acoustice that make them special. the sound of my school's Steinway concert grand in the very good recital hall will NEVER be replaced by the prerecorded sounds of my digital, or anyone else's. why do you hate acoustics?

i still feel pretty strange, when a teacher ask for specifically what kind of pianos that his/her students should have or else refuse giving lessons. you know, for the best one, we could just advertize like this:

I, a superb qualified teacher (insert awards, competition winners, etc, here), will take students who only have Stainways/Fazioli/Bosendorfer piano (grand prefered), because i am only interested in teaching best students who have the best pianos and don't want to waste my time on others!

how does this sound? (laugh about it if you want to. )

:p that means i couldn't even teach myself!

signa,
If you are implying that I am this type of teacher-- to only accept students if they have a good quality acoustic, I'm not. But I am almost there.
This is why... The students I do have that practice on spinits or old uprights (that can't be regulated and/or tuned up to A440) and yes those that have digital pianos, find it a lot less satisfying to do their daily practice and do it correctly. The students that do have good quality acoustic pianos to practice on learn much faster, develop better listening skills and enjoy the process so much more. As a teacher, I consequently will strongly encourage my students, even at the beginning of their instruction, to have the best instrument they can possibly afford; thus having a higher success rate in their muscical studies.

i understand your intention, pianobuff, and you have your right to demand anything from your students anyway, which is not what i want to argue. but, what i am saying is that you're trying (as you said 'almost there') to exclude some maybe very talented students who may not be able to afford a good quality acoustic or even some great digital pianos. i often think, since i am not in music profession and started to play for fun initially from even a much worse instrument - a cheap Casio keyboard, which doesn't even have 'weighted' action, an above average talent and strong determination are more important when doing something like learning to play an instrument. i don't have a lot of talent (or maybe just little bit to keep me on track) and never owned a piano of your standard, but i love music and had a little bit music background and was determined to play better which kept me trying on my own for 5 years before getting a teacher.

it doesn't tell much about my playing of course, but my teacher was happy the 1st time he watched me playing for him, because despite all the troubles, mistakes, nerversnous i had with each piece i played for him, he saw something good in my basic techniques. my teacher, a great one as i realize now, cares less about what piano i play on, but how i play and what techniques i had then and what he could teach me to advance my skills. that's the point i was trying to make, and i feel extremely lucky to have a teacher (my very first piano teacher btw) like that, who understands and knows how to help his students without any extra demands on instruments.

pianobuff,

Your argument is a classic example of mistaking association for causation. In a nutshell, this amounts to: events A and B occur together quite frequently so A should be causing B. Just replace A with "having (expensive) acoustic pianos" and B with "better learner".

I think what's really working behind the scene is the socio-economic status and/or musical preference of the parents (or students themselves).

I suspect you would have equal or better "success rate" in teaching by recruting your students only from wealthy neighborhood or charge twice as much as the current lesson fee.

TD

toda and signa,
Both of you, I think are missing the point.
Please read my first (original) post.
I am looking for an affordable, good quality, acoustic instrument for my students to begin their musical studies with. I do think this is important. That is why I am trying to find the best option for my families that cannot afford very much.
Pearl River's I've seen are of adequate quality at a reasonable price (2-3K.)
An inferior piano at home can take away from the music lesson. If you are going to pay for piano lessons then you owe it to yourself and/or your child to do whatever you can to have a decent enough piano to practice on.
I don't deny families from taking lessons from me based on their instrument as long as it is not digital. It has nothing to do if a family is poor or not, I just don't teach this way.
When there is a will there is a way. And I do feel finding an adequate instrument to practice on is part of the assignment, as important as the music assignment itself.
Signa, I do understand your point of view. But I have to say, if I was your teacher, I would also see potential, and I would want you to have a finer instrument to practice on, than a casio keyboard. I would want this for YOU. I feel that you deserve a nicer instrument to learn on, so that your potential can grow as a musician. Simple as that.

pianobuff,
I took the time to address your post with absolutely no response from you afterward. I explained to you how I put together a digital system that most pianists would love to play....that comment being based on comparisons I make all the time between it and my other three Tier 1 acoustic grand pianos. Yet you weren't curious in the least about it. I find that curious. You just keep referring to digital instruments as inferior and not as nice to learn on. What if the student could afford such a system, and their parents preferred NOT to listen as they plunked away on their scales early on?(so they could put on headphones to pracvtice) What if they could accompany themselves with strings, vocals, 150 other instruments and then record it to hear exactly what they were doing right and wrong-all this to keep the lessons fresh, enjoyable and interesting. What if the response of the keyboard was 90% the feel of the acoustic grand (which most uprights are not even close to), and the sound of the digital emulated an acoustic perfectly? Would you think any differently about this?

Pianobuff,

As a newish student I don't know if I would buy a piano from my teacher, but I would love it if my teacher referred me to specific models/stores technicians. I would gladly pay for the advice.

I have a clunker and a digital, and enough money put aside to buy myself a decent piano (10K). However, buying a new acoustic is just too darn confusing; add the used market and my head spins.

When you can barely play yourself, advice to buy the piano that "sounds best" is not helpful. Add some stage fright and no wonder people decide a digital is a better purchase. The accoustic piano market is just too confusing for the neophyte amateur to negotiate.

Piano teachers seem reluctant to give advice on purchasing pianos. So long as it was advice (and not an order/demand) I would ceertainly appreciate it.

Dorrie

Pianobuff

I am the teacher who came under some criticism in the Business Ethics thread a month ago. I sell a piano or two each year. I get a small commission for it. My goal is to have my students playing an instrument that furthers their goals. This store I represent also sells digitals and they are included in the price list/brochures at my studio. I mention this only because Gyro has posted several places that "some teachers have a kickback arrangement with stores that sell acoustics, and will discourage their students from buying a digital for that reason" He was referring to me, and I just wanted to set the record straight. I also sell digitals.

When I get a new student I always ask what they have for an instrument. It is inevitable that some students will have clunkers or digitals. That is the way it is. As a teacher is really difficult to "tell" a parent that they need to go out and purchase another instrument. If somebody says, "Oh, we have an old spinet my grandmother gave us...I think it needs some work because a few keys stick, and it hasn't been tuned in 20 years" I will politley give them the name of the tuner I recommend, and wish them luck.

In a perfect world, all of my students would (at least)have a nice studio upright that has been tuned and maintained. Too bad this world is far from perfect.

My philosophy is that motivated students will play ANYTHING! I have had terrible students with Steinways and awesome students with digitals. Take a look back at Chris H's thread about motivating kids. We all agreed that the single most important factor to the student's success was his/her own motivation. I do not recall anyone saying it was the instrument itself that made them want to play.

The hope is that as a student becomes more involved with music and playing, they will slowly ascend through the "teirs" of instruments, maybe someday ending up with a beautiful grand. Or if you are CC2 and Chopin lover, 3 grands AND a digital!!! A while ago there was a thread called "show us your pictures" in the AB forum...CC2's setup is to die for.

But to address your original post:
No, you can't screen students by their instruments. It is a good thought and a noble wish (that all students have a nice instrument), but these things are beyond your control.

Dorrie, I would suggest a decent piano to consider is a Boston UP 118..a nice studio upright. You will pay a bit more than $5,000 for a new one. I am very happy with the sound of mine.

I have to say I often reccomend Yamaha and Kawai. Many people on this forum knock them and I would agree that it is possible to do better if you know what you are looking for or have a higher budget. At least these makes tend to be consistant in sound and quality. You know pretty much what you are going to get if you buy new. They are also established names and will be easy to sell when the time comes to trade up. Take my grand for example. I tried a lot of pianos before buying a Wilh. Steinberg and I am satisfied I got a good deal. However if I want to trade up I know the resale value will not compare favourably with the likes of Yamaha as hardly anyone has heard of Wilh. Steinberg. This doesn't matter much to me as I have no plans to upgrade for a while but you need to think about it if you buy a starter instrument.

I am not sure that it doesn't matter what instrument a student has. From what I have seen it is quite an important factor. Many kids have had their progress stunted because they haven't got something decent to practice on. By something decent I mean a piano, acoustic or digital, that actually works and is fairly well in tune with itself. I know I have quite a few students whose pianos do not even measure up to this description. It made a big difference to me as I posted in the practice environment thread.

Chris

You are right, I probably shouldn't have written that students will play ANYTHING, since nobody will learn much on an instrument that is unplayable. I just see that this quality issue comes with the territory if you are teaching as much as we are...and we are left fairly helpless to change it.

I get the comment sometimes from students, "your piano sounds different than mine". That is a good bet that they are playing on a poorly tuned instrument.

But again, I wonder, "who can I control?" the answer is, "only myself". Given this I refrain from pressuring parents or using other tactics to persuade parents/student to spend money in ways they do not want to.

The decision about the instrument ultimately is in someone else's hands.

CC2 and Chopin lover,
I apologize that I didn't respond to your post, directly.
It is because I am in pretty much the same situation as you. Three grands and a digital keyboard along with a multi-track digitial recorder. The digital is in a separate room.
I guess it is a matter of opinion. I still stand by mine. I teach classical piano. I teach my youngest students using Suzuki Piano Basics where the focus is listening, techinique and tone development. I'm sorry, but IMHO this cannot happen on a digital. Digital keyboards are a great tool for recording, composition, special effects. My son uses our Yamaha S88 for soundtracks for his filmmaking. It is wonderful for this kind of thing.
I would not think of using my digital for teaching piano, nor for the enjoyment of pure playing.
My personal opinion here!

I respect that. Thanks for your response.

LWPianistin, I admit I am not the leading
advocate for acoustic pianos. I grew up
with acoustics and all the problems
associated with them: tunings,
after which the instrument seemed to sound the
same, or worse; sticking keys; malfunctioning
strings; strange, buzzing noises that appear out
of nowhere; things falling off the rattletrap
mechanism; etc. Talk about "clunker," any
acoustic piano is almost by definition
a clunker when compared to a digital.

You could today--not sometime in the
future--play a big-time classical concert
on a digital.

I agree whole-heartedly w/Pianobuff. The piano makes all the difference in the world. When I taught privately, I encouraged all of my beginners to get a good quality acoustic piano. I would reluctantly agree to allow a digital if they agreed to trade up as soon as possible. Having consistent feedback from a good acoustic is essential to develop various sensitivities about how touch can affect tone, what constitutes proper tone, pedaling techchniques, and accurate pitch awareness. And so far as a stable tuning goes, a student's potential for developing perfect pitch can be dashed if pitch levels are variable.
Just a quick story, I had a student who was fairly advanced who just could not develop the simplest of pedaling techniques. I finally went to her home, and the pedal rods on her old Howard grand were crossed!
I also have to echo Pianobuff's sentiments regarding digitals. I own a digital for those times when an acoustic is not available. It's a valuable tool, but it's no substitute for an acoustic piano. Subtle touch controlled tone variations and advanced pedaling are totally lacking. They can have nice feeling actions, but those actions do not control sound the way an acoustic does.