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I would like to hear more about this. Could you please give a few examples of the goals that you set and the tests that you use for each goal?

We had a discussion on this about a year ago.

I will try to dig it up. I put all the information down back then. I have been slowly tweaking my system since that time, so if I cannot find it, I will re-state my positions on this.

-P-

One quick example to get you started,

Let's say that there is a technical difficulty with fingering or whatever...Set a metronome speed at which you will attempt to play 3x in a row with accuracy. Metronome speed should be S-L-O-W to promote awareness. You must strongly invoke your concious mind when overcoming a subconcious or neuromuscular (technical) blunder. You usually cannot fix a problem that lies in your fingers by playing fast.

Or on a different note...Lets say that there is a place in a piece where your memory fails you. Your goal and test could be to come up with a lyric that provides a verbal cue to the movement...."B-dom-i-nant-se-ven-in-side-then-out", could be a verbal cue to describe a tricky moving Alberti bass pattern. The test would be to play and sing your lyric 5x.

You really are only limited by your creativity. Contrary to student opinion, time spent in thought is very rarely wasted.

If you have a problem that you cannot devise a goal or test for, please type it in and I will help get you started.

-P-

Are you referring to this thread?

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/27/1504.html#000018

What kind of test would you use for sight-reading?

Ideally I would make no pitch or rhythm errors at all when sight-reading a piece, but usually I make at least a few. If I try again, it's not sight-reading anymore. Is it even a reasonable goal to sight-read with 100% accurate pitch and rhythm?

Assuming for the moment that it is a reasonable goal, what can I do when I realize that I am making errors? I can see several options:

• Use a slower tempo. I find that this helps up to a point, beyond which it takes extra effort to stay on the beat and my sight-reading actually gets worse. The same thing applies to effort spent on counting if I decide that, say, a sixteenth note gets the beat in a 4/4 piece.
• Choose simpler pieces. Today I was sight-reading from Alfred Masterwork Classics, Level 1, and still hitting some wrong notes. Simpler material than that is often mind-numbing to hear when played (IMO), but maybe it is my best option.
• Don't play through an entire piece at once. Instead, decide in advance to play a certain number of measures and try to get through that much error-free. I have tried this and it seems promising.
• Spend more time analyzing the piece before playing. I have noticed that this helps as well. Maybe goals could be set for the analysis instead of (or in addition to) the actual playing.

If it is not a reasonable goal to sight-read with 100% accurate pitch and rhythm, then what is the best way to define how much inaccuracy is allowed? There are various types of errors one can make, and I imagine that keeping track of an error count could interfere with the sight-reading.

If my above post about elementary sight-reading troubles seems completely off-topic in a thread about advanced students, I apologize. Maybe I need to start my own thread.

I wonder, though, how many advanced students are poor sight-readers. There is a huge gap in difficulty between what I can sight-read and what I can prepare for performance over an extended period.

Hey! :t:

I have a few <Asian> students going to a competition this coming weekend, and I can assure you that they are not practicing more than 30 minutes per day. AND THAT'S DURING SUMMER BREAK WHEN THEY ARE HOME ALL DAY LONG WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO!!! I'm not holding my breath. I predict an utter disaster, complete wipeout.

I just had a horrible week of lessons. Kids aren't as hardworking as they used to be.

LB,

Practice your sight reading withing the context of learning pieces. Imagine this allegory: You wish to carry a large dresser up the stairs. You can choose to make several trips by taking each of the drawers out, or you can try to wrestle the whole thing in one go.

Remember this motto: practicing is not doing something over and over until you get it right...Practicing is doing something RIGHT over and over. Remember, your performance is the sum total of what happens in the practice room.

Here's the difference. Let's assume you are looking at a new goal (measures 9-12 left hand only) that you wish to practice, and eventually pass a test...your goal is to learn the entire section without making even one mistake in the process.

The only way for this to be possible...is to look for the simple withing the difficult. Start easy, and gradually add difficulty. As you mentioned: play slow, work on smaller sections, and of course Hands together. I will give my two favorite other simplification tools---tapping (isolating only the rhythm)---and pulsing (playing only strong metrical beads first, then filling in the rest)


Here's one possible sample approach that can actually allow you to not even make one mistake while practicing:


1) count out loud and tap the rhythm 5x (use left hand on left knee...this actually initiates the neuromuscular reference point in your subconcious...it is very important that the first three repititions be accurate

2) take Left hand from one measure to the next, trying to find a position on the keyboard that allows you to play each measure with ease. Just touch the keys in the best 5 finger position

3) Scour the section looking for intellectual reference points. All rudiments, motifs, sequences ect should be identified and labeled. (you have not played even played a note yet...don't worry it will come soon)

4) While looking at the score, imagine yourself playing the music, internally feel any spots where fingering may be a challenge. work them out now without making a sound. (this will help you to develop a 6th sense with fingering)

5) PLAY only the first beat of each measure. Then add any other metrically strong beats (3) if in 4/4. Finally add in any other filler notes. (use a slightly larger muscle initiation for the strongest beats---upper or lower arm---). A push, like a ice skater. This will help to feel comfortable as you sense the spaces in each measure.

6) Play through a few times normally

7) Test yourself with the metronome, 3x in a row to pass. The speed is not important, after all, if your technique is solid, any memorized, internalized material will be comfortable at your max technical level.

Remember that your concentration lives and thrives in the land of the possible. Practice with a sense of ease. Linger on each of these steps longer than you normally would.

Could you learn it faster by just jumping in Hands together, playing normally? Often you can...but you will have played it ONCE correctly instead of 50-100 times correctly using my approach. This approach has a learning curve in it's application. You are learning how to learn I understand how this sounds.

Some cannot be bothered to go through all of this. I cannot be bothered to wrestle with a slippery subconcious later on when I have to painstakingly clean up the mess that is left there from the plethora of accurate and innacurate information that is juxtaposed there.

If you make it through the practice process without one mistake (I've come close, but never managed it...YET). I sincerely believe that you will not be able to make a mistake in performance even if you tried.

AZN, we all have weeks like this, but we also have good weeks. Yesterday, two students arrived with their assignments fully memorized, something I didn't ask them to do, and the other students were fully prepared. So I'd say, this is one of the great weeks!

Oh and:

Yes you dug up the right old thread:

I think you should copy and paste Your question and my answer into a new thread, for a separate discussion on reading.

Hope I've helped

-P-

I agree with Morodiene that practicing is much more about quality than quantity. It usually take me 20 minutes or more playing a song repeatedly before my concentration can immerse deeply as how to shape the piece the way I wanted and how I should play it to rectify tricky areas. Before that, I would get frustrated easily when I play the wrong notes.

I'm in like a trance when I'm really concentrating on what needs to get done.

Whoa, resurrecting a very old thread. Why???

Usually we don't bring back old threads unless there is something really new to add that calls for revitalizing the existing topic and all of its posts. If you have a new idea, instead of piggy-backing on stuff that is six months old you should start a new thread.

This is one of the most interesting and helpful threads I've read in a while.

So...

Someone (late intermediate)who practices 3 hours a day in 1 hour sessions... is it wiser/necessary to incorporate scale/arpeggio practice at each session.

I plan my practice sessions carefully and it actualy works ....for a while... then I find myself falling into a pattern of....

Working on scales (one or two) and/or any etudes assigned (about 15 minutes), then playing/polishing a couple of 'finished' pieces (15 minutes) then working on the (usually)two 'in progress' pieces for the last half hour. I sometimes do this for only the first two sessions of my day and spend my evening session sightreading or playing from fake books or easier pop/christmas or what ever mood I'm in...

Practicing scales major and minor and arpeggios and dominant 7th chords and inversions etc...... all takes some time. I find it difficult to maintain a structured practice routine for more than a couple of weeks. Wondering how others do it.

Although, I bet if I had to play scales etc. at my lessons I'd manage to keep on track. Do you who are teachers require students to play these for you each week?

Why would you expect a teacher to do this? If this is work you could do at home, why waste lesson time with it?

I try to hear some scales/arps every lesson. If not I know plenty of students who would 'forget' to practice them at all.

Regarding practice time for advanced students. What I find most frustrating is that advanced students are often in the final stages of their school education. Most of my better pianists are in year 12 or 13. This means that they struggle to find much practice time at all because they are taking several subjects at advanced level. During the months leading up to A level exams they do well to find as much as an hour a day. This is totally inadequate if you are studying piano at an advanced level. Now those who choose to study music at university will find that they suddenly have the opportunity to practice for 5-6 hours a day. It will be expected of them. This is when the real progress happens, at that first year of university. I remember going through this change myself.

I don't expect him to and it would waste valuable lesson tme, not to mention it would be painfor for him to listen to. I was just wondering if there are teachers who require students to play them at lessons. I take responsibility for my own technical exerciese but have trouble staying on track with them.

Scales are technical exercises. If you spend a lot of time practicing them it will bring about change to your technique. So what if you are practicing scales with poor technique? I wouldn't consider it a waste of lesson time to check up on this.

Sandy, you want a more structured routine for scale practice don't you? Then it would seem a good use of lesson time to plan something out with your teacher.

Good idea. My teacher has given me a wealth of information and suggestions over the years for practicing scales and other technical exercises, but it's not part of our regular lesson. I'll do a schedule of my own this week and discuss it with him at my next lesson.

My view on scales and exersices is this: Every piece is a set of tecniques put together to create beautiful sound. To master these tecniques beforehand makes playing that particular piece more fun and it is learned more quickly.

This is my motivation for isolating certain tecniques and playing scales. This isn't meaningless or boring since I know why I'm doing it and what I want to achieve. Etudes can be quite useful for the same purpose. If I practice scales regularly for a period it can get a bit boring, so I go through other types of exersices for a while. My point: Time flies since I'm having a good time, I don't worry about it.