Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Advanced Student Practice Time

That is a broad generalization, and a bit too dismissive of "recreational pianists", in my opinion, considering the tiny percentage of those who take piano lessons, who are able to go on to make their living at the piano.

Many "recreational pianists" are quite serious about the piano. What is true of recreational pianists is generally a limited time available to practice. As, we saw in another thread, seems to also be true of piano teachers.

Scales could be of great benefit to those who do not currently practice them. The issue may, in fact, be that no one has taught them *how* to practice scales and what benefits can be realized from them.

The question, in terms of this thread, would then be, "how much % of your practice time should be devoted to scales?" Because, of course, you do need repertoire, too...

You are right about my generalization.

I take it back.

That has been MY experience with recreational pianists that come to me to go to the next level. It usually takes me quite a while to get them on board with a technical regimen.

I hate it when people generalize...so I am glad you caught me on this.

My answer to your percentage question is: It depends on the student and their goals. I have students who spend between 0 and 80% of their total time on technique (according to our mutual agreement). Both of these numbers are extremes, and apply only to very special cases.

well, I do not think in my really humble opinion that not getting too excited about scales specifically means ignoring technique.. I am not sure how one could move "to the next level" without technique. I know that a student's perspective on this is kind of suspect. But i also learnt, recently, that my suspicions are not completely ridiculous.
As I said, very prominent teachers (who have produced equally prominent non recreational pianists) have been quoted as recommending the incorporation of technique with music. "why practice octaves if you can practice playing the Liszt Octave etude", is a near quote from one of those teachers: Gyorgy Sandor (hope I am spelling it right). i also read some very insightful comments by the same person about life being very short and the pianist' repertoire extensive: Beethoven wrote 32 sonatas , why practice scales instead of real music? In fact he apparently has published a book about technique that i will be looking up.
I completley get it that each teacher has a method they trust and that there is more than one right way to achieve the same.. .. But i really don't get it if you say : No scales= no technique..

Pianoexcellence
I know that I was not taught why or how to practice scales. One of the many omissions that have had me playing 'catch up' ever since, unfortunately,

Elise_B
Why practice scales when you can practice real music? Well, I can only answer for myself, but when I am practicing real music I have about a dozen things that I'm trying to control and play well at the same time. With scales, that number is dramatically reduced...to only one or two things that I'm trying to do at the same time (ie-play softly and evenly, play loudly and evenly, or just, play evenly!).

I'm not good enough to only have to concentrate on one or two things when I'm playing real music.

Elise

I did not say no scales=no technique.

My "straw man" alert is beeping right now.

Also, Gyorgy Sandor's book is primarily about the rudimentary movements in piano.

Count how many times he references scales, chords and arpeggios in that main section of his book.

Karl Liemer, another master teacher is known to say that too many etudes ruins the nerves.

We can go back and forth dropping names of masters.

I was curious about Mr. Sandor's pedagogical views, and found this clip: Interview about Sandor
In it, Sandor is quoted in remembrance of his teacher's teaching, (Bela Bartok), speaking of the the absolute beauty of Bartok's scales because of their pure technical execution. Sandor taught as he had been taught, and that teaching apparently included scales that had to be executed perfectly. I wonder whether the quote about octaves was taken in isolation, and Sandor was also making the point about technique being inherent in pieces?

Keystring,

I agree.

Context Context Context.

I took detailed notes from the books of Liemer, Sandor, Whiteside, and many others. Any of them can be spoken for out of general context with quotes.

If I tried hard enough, I could probably make Whiteside sound like she advocates a fingery typewriter style touch.

Well, I am a full time choir teacher with 3 small children. I have very little time to practice. But, I still like to keep up the repetoire that I have and develop new stuff. What I have learned though, is that to develop and maintain my technique through the rehearsal of scales in fact allows me to play more and it allows me to play more effectively the music that I wish to play. Someone stated earlier that music is made up of scales, etc. why not just get to the rep? We don't take the short cut because in the long run it's going to take you longer and your experience won't be as good. Continuing my scales, etc. allows me to play more rep, as well as play more effectively in the very little time that I have.

I am not sure what you mean by straw man, fired up saws etc..
i was simply quoting smething I gleaned from an interview and as I said it made me curious about reading the original book it refers to. So the caveat was there.. I am really not trying to challenge your methods , but just expressing an opinion. You are certainly not the first teacher to think highly of scales.. Mine does. or did. he is backing off a bit I get a feeling..or it may be the bad summer weather in the city..
i will also admit that reading about techniques and other pianists is completely new to me and I had not heard of the Sandor person until i read this book. So I could not drop any more master names if I wanted to..
KS, it is interesting you mentioned Bartok. In the same interview, Sandor says
(this one is a verbatim quote becasue I got the book right here):

"dubal: I know you studied with bartok. what was he like as a pianist, teacher and man?
Sandor: it was an overwhelming experience. (..)i will never forget my first lesson with him. he sat down and simply played a scale. To my amazement, he played it unevenly. His scale was alive. It came from somewhere, and went somewher. it wasn't stagnant, or bland. Such freedom was a revelation to me." pp284 (1984 edition).

it was a revelation to me too.

I will also add that these people navigate in different orbits than many of us..It may well be that you have to do perfect scales for the first 15 years and then uneven 'alive" ones for the next whatever years..

Jeremy, your comments on technique are inspirational. Thank you.

Student's ideas and concepts about practice are as distant from their teacher's as the earth is from the moon. I would guess that if you interviewed a thousand students concerning practicing scales, the would be first on the correct notes, then the correct fingers, then perhaps velocity. Focus on tone, touch control, hand, wrist, and arm movements probably would not be mentioned at all.

Elise, that is interesting. There must be something extra to these uneven scales ... uneven for a reason, a musical purpose perhaps. (?)

Which is exactly what I am trying to accomplish at my house.

Elise,

Chainsaw comment---practicing scales mindlessly is like cutting wood with a chainsaw that is turned off...it will cut but...

Straw man---an argument tactic where you take an easily refuted point that seems like it is my view, but really is not. Kinda like putting words in my mouth.

this was in response to your No scales=no technique comment. Nobody would say that

To chime in... for advanced level students at least 2 hours of practice, if you are serious and wanting to progress, imo.

I would hope that a serious student would be working on 4 pieces from each period of music. Plus warm-ups before hand... yes scales, arpeggios, are definately a must... not just for techinique but for theory too. All of this will take at least 2 hours... And six days of practice a week and then you'll see results quickly. Another 30 minutes on most days could be used for review pieces, even if it is just a couple of pieces that can be performed while working on the new ones.

Elise_B, I'm sure if you really don't want to play scales, you can find a myriad of 'reasons' not to do it. But pianoexcellence is correct - scales are an important aspect of technique development, they are important in development of theory, and if a pianist has really internalized the scales and is able to play them with ease, then any passage in some etude or other than contains them will be played correctly instantly - and the pianist won't even have to think about the key or a key change or any such things because he/she will immediately recognize the upcoming passage. This is critical for reading skills (accompanying in particular - accompanists have to do a lot of sightreading and it needs to be darn near flawless and sound good at the same time) as well as facilitating better overall playing skills.

If you are already going that far,

Have you thought of pre-planning all your goals for the next day at the end of each practice session? When studying seriously, I planned 4 hours of practice down to 5 minute intervals. each interval had a goal (and test) that that i thought I could achieve in 5 minutes. often I was wrong about exactly how long the goals would take, but in the end, I usually came pretty close. Deciding upon what outcome will take how long to achieve is a fabulous exercise in awareness at the piano. it also creates a sense of urgency in practice...even 2.5 hours in.

This Pre-planning usually only took 10-25 minutes, and now I have a notebook full of information on how I learn best. Planning at the end of a practice session allows one to dive right in at the next session without missing a beat. I have little doubt that 25 minutes spent planning resulted in a 200% ROI.

Just a thought.

-P-

Another thing P*D,

If P*S is practicing more than 2 hours a day, overuse injury can come into play.

I suffered fairly bad overuse injury and, managed to cope and eventually heal completely by using certain practice strategies. Here is one portion of a handout I made for my students who begin feeling pain.

5) Practice habits
- Allow at least 3 days of complete rest on the weekends. Do not even think about touching the piano. You’ll be surprised to find that you will usually play better after the third day…??!!
- Do not practice for more than 30 minutes without a break.
- Plan practice time down to 5 minute intervals. Change direction each 5 minutes, from a polished piece to a beginning stage piece, from technique, to reading, to ear. Mix it up.
o You’ll be surprised how fast 30 minutes goes by when you do this. Force yourself to take a break.
- Spend a great deal of time at half speed for everything. Become comfortable with the space between beats at 40-60 on the metronome. Play with full expression and zero tension. Breathe.
o If your technique is good, then you will not have to practice at full speed any more than 10% of the time.
o You will also find a unique sense of ease, relaxation, and control in your playing at full speed after playing numerous times at 40-60 on the metronome.
- Visualize…can you close your eyes and visualize the piece? Imagine a keyboard, and watch your hands play the piece on this keyboard. Great alternative to counting sheep.
o when visualizing, Start with technical exercises, and work up from there to your pieces.

Pre-planning?

I'm just thankful we're logging the stuff! One step at a time.

I'm not worried about overuse injury. Lots of people practice 4-5 hours per day. Actually, he's going for four hours today, which will be a first. He's unlikely to suffer overuse injury precisely because he practices in 30-50 minute bursts followed by significant break time (to practice video games! ).

I think I'm getting a little buy in on the value of mastering technique for making everything else come much easier. We're doing 30-45 minutes per day on basic technique.

Relax on the weekends???? That's got to be the really productive time during the school year. He plans for three hours per day on the weekends and two per day on school days. Sixteen hours per week is probably required for him to continue to have the kind of learning trajectory that he has enjoyed in the past and which will keep him competitive with all the other good young (Asian ) pianists in our neck of the woods.

Of course, there is no particular reason to be 'competitive' except that it is exactly what he wants to do. He likes to compete with them, and it's silly to do so if you don't pay your dues. He also realizes that he has the potential, but only if he sweats a little.

...Just in case...I didn't think I would get overuse injury either.

I would be better to say a "3 day break". Weekend is not the important thing.

Nothing wrong with competition.