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#92108 - 11/13/08 08:46 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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What I really want to see here is a picture of Avantgardenabi's piano and the room it came from.

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#92109 - 11/13/08 08:55 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Jurgen, I don't know if you are referring to me, but it is not my attempt to "egg" anyone on. If the rebuilder in question wants to walk away, that is within their right. It's worth noting that before the thread derailed, people (including Gene Korolev) said it was a good price and that the poster should take it.

I fail to see how what the poster did was "unethical." Simply by posting the price? If the same rebuilder quotes a different price to a different piano/person, he should be able to explain why the prices are different. Every rebuild is different, no surprise why prices are different. I certainly deal with this sort of thing in my own work all the time.


The posts are coming from inside the house! Repeat, the posts are coming from inside the house!
#92110 - 11/13/08 08:57 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Well I sure am glad someone got the point...

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#92111 - 11/13/08 08:59 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
Originally posted by Supply:
Speaking for myself, I think a client who displays this kind of lack of judgement is not someone I want to be involved with.
I am sorry, but I honestly do not understand this statement.

My pictures did not contain any more information whatsoever except my name, my piano's serial number, and the estimate. Therefore I initially did not feel that I was doing something wrong.

It is I who should be offended if this information is disclosed to the public, but I chose to do so.

Also, I clearly mentioned that prices will vary according to my choices. I only disclosed a rough estimate.

I wrote this update, because everyone seems to be interested in my piano.

But I will stop writing these updates from now. I apologize if my writings caused any problems.

(Please understand that posting pictures in this site is actually really painful, but I still wanted to share anyway...)

In Korea, everyone shares virtually everything these days via internet, for a good will of a general public.

Again, I am very sorry for my actions.

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#92112 - 11/13/08 09:05 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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As a non-piano related consultant, I would be very distressed if I saw one of my quotes with my full company information on a forum related to my line of work. It may not be illegal, but as others have said, it sure is tacky.

Pricing is something that is very dependent on current conditions, e.g., maybe the rebuilder underpriced and is desperate for work due to the current economic conditions or because he took pity on the OP, whatever... Maybe he overpriced, because he is too busy or didn't like the OP or whatever.

Either way, I wouldn't want other customers to wave that picture in my face when, for whatever reason, the next quote is/has to be higher.

In general, although many of my clients know each other, I trust and believe that they do not discuss my quotes with each other...EVER.

Meta

#92113 - 11/13/08 09:08 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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I will not argue with you. I was simply stating my personal views as a professional piano technician.

Keep us informed of developments with your piano. I am truly interested.

#92114 - 11/13/08 09:15 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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I was kind of looking forward to seeing how this project turned out. Hopefully, Avantgardenabi hasn't left the building for good.


Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it.
Will Rogers

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#92115 - 11/13/08 09:21 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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I don't think we have to worry about Avantgardenabi leaving. We should be worried about Avantgardenabi being left.

#92116 - 11/13/08 10:06 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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This thread has been enlightening. Not only did I learn about civil law but I now have a list of a few piano "people" that I personally will NEVER do business with.

This lady made an unfortunate mistake. I don't believe for a second it was malicious. Whether she was right or wrong, some of the behavior exhibited by members on this thread is simply atrocious.

#92117 - 11/13/08 10:15 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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I, too, think this has become a 'tempest in a teacup'. The original posting of the tech's info was 'not quite the thing', but now we learn that the poster is of a much more "open" culture, as far as such matters are concerned. When Avantgardenabi learned of the faux pas, the offending material was removed.

But now we have techs 'blackballing' ALL PW members (I hope you'll reconsider, Dan) and other members blacklisting some techs who have responded (I hope you'll also reconsider, LR).

Please...a little charity (I'm speaking of the Christian sort, but whatever your leanings, it's a universal concept) for your fellow posters...well, heck...how about for your fellow human beings?

Avantgardenabi, I hope you will continue to keep us updated on your Knabe. It's a beautiful piano, and I'd really like to see how it turns out. I will understand, though, if you say 'to heck with them all' and we never hear from you again. And that would be more the pity.


PTG Associate Member

"There is always room above; there is only the ground below."....F.E. Morton (with props to Del F.)
#92118 - 11/13/08 10:32 PM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#92119 - 11/14/08 12:37 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Of the general public today, what percentage have the wish to buy a piano? Of that percentage, what percentage wish to buy an old geezer of a piano that has seen better days? Of that percentage, what percentage wish to restore that piano to its original potential and invest heavily in doing so knowing full well that the total cost will almost certainly never be recouped?

Here we have such an individual, yet some otherwise very rational members of the rebuilding community are doing everything short of driving a stake through his/her heart. Go figure.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
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#92120 - 11/14/08 12:58 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
Originally posted by turandot:
Of the general public today, what percentage have the wish to buy a piano? Of that percentage, what percentage wish to buy an old geezer of a piano that has seen better days? Of that percentage, what percentage wish to restore that piano to its original potential and invest heavily in doing so knowing full well that the total cost will almost certainly never be recouped?

Here we have such an individual, yet some otherwise very rational members of the rebuilding community are doing everything short of driving a stake through his/her heart. Go figure.
Agreed. thumb Certain techs owe the OP apologies. This was absolutely over the top.

I don't agree with the OP posting those pics, and I'm glad he removed them.

But the fact remains that certain members here who call themselves professionals acted in a completely shabby, *UN*professional fashion.

The OP admitted he comes from a different culture and didn't understand our conventions of doing business. He has stood corrected. He has removed the offending pics. Enough is enough.

We may have lost a good contributor due to uncalled for vitriol.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#92121 - 11/14/08 01:00 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
Originally posted by JDelmore:
I, too, think this has become a 'tempest in a teacup'. The original posting of the tech's info was 'not quite the thing', but now we learn that the poster is of a much more "open" culture, as far as such matters are concerned. When Avantgardenabi learned of the faux pas, the offending material was removed.

But now we have techs 'blackballing' ALL PW members (I hope you'll reconsider, Dan) and other members blacklisting some techs who have responded (I hope you'll also reconsider, LR).

Please...a little charity (I'm speaking of the Christian sort, but whatever your leanings, it's a universal concept) for your fellow posters...well, heck...how about for your fellow human beings?

Avantgardenabi, I hope you will continue to keep us updated on your Knabe. It's a beautiful piano, and I'd really like to see how it turns out. I will understand, though, if you say 'to heck with them all' and we never hear from you again. And that would be more the pity.
Well put, JDelmore! thumb

I couldn't agree with you more.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#92122 - 11/14/08 02:01 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
Originally posted by Silverwood Pianos:
This poster knows absolutely NOTHING about civil law.
And nothing about what is apparently taken for granted to be common sense, ethics and good judgment—in the piano rebuilding community.

Why should he or she?

When I saw those pictures last night, my only concern was that the OP's name was visible. It never occurred to me that there was anything improper, inappropriate, illegal or even tacky about sharing the proposal itself, and I've lived right here in the U.S. for 52 years.

I'm not saying there was nothing wrong with posting pictures of the contract—only that I didn't realize it and never would have foreseen it. I would have had to be told.

If ignorance is no defense, how about an honest mistake? How is one supposed to know something that is presumed to be common sense—but is not common sense, after all? If I had no idea of any wrongdoing, how would a foreign national less than half my age whose own culture explicitly embraces such actions be expected to know?

Haven't we all made honest mistakes? I think that any number of reactions in this thread were just horrible—especially the suggestion that the OP's motivation was to be solicited by competitors who might then undercut the price in the proposal.

And still, no one seems to have explained why this was such a huge misstep—legally or ethically—as to elicit the reactions that it has. That someone would be so mean-spirited as to say things like "I hope you get your butt sued" and "you are a damn fool......." amazes me, as does the fact that this poster couldn't even give the OP the benefit of the doubt and time to respond (and remove the offending pictures) before writing, "I have just had a conversation with this company by telephone. I then sent them the link. After all should they not be made aware?"

Steven

#92123 - 11/14/08 03:47 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
Originally posted by Less Rubato:
This thread has been enlightening. Not only did I learn about civil law but I now have a list of a few piano "people" that I personally will NEVER do business with.

... I don't believe for a second it was malicious. Whether she was right or wrong, some of the behavior exhibited by members on this thread is simply atrocious.
Actually, I don't think there has been any definitive clarity on civil law, standard business practices or even ethics produced here.

Interestingly enough at least one of those expressing outrage has been on record on other "threat threads" making accusations and putting down customers in a very one-sided, short-sighted and negative fashion. The anti-customer (sour grapes?) reaction here is completely in character.

It someone has shot themselves in the foot, it certainly has not been the OP.

aventgardenabie, in my book you have done nothing wrong except for being modern, open, savvy, transparent, trusting, diligent and apparently also passionate about your piano plans. The piano industry is one example of a slowly dying out "horse whip and buggy industry" some of whose members and their dated attitudes and business practices will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into this century or who, predictably, will be left abandoned and dejected at the side of the road lamenting the days when their services were in greater demand and customers who had no information to protect themselves could easily be led by the nose to slaughter.

I can only imagine how much more valuable the "price paid" threads in for example the digital and piano forums would be if all posts would be required to be accompanied by a scan of the firm signed quote or store receipt to be accepted. That would put an end to at least one complaint leveled at these threads that the so-called prices paid are bogus.

#92124 - 11/14/08 04:27 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Avant -- You have nothing to worry about, and you have apologized more than enough. If you noticed, the only people that made a big fuss are mostly in the business, where they like to deal behind a cloak of secrecy. I'm enjoying all of their pathetic whining and whimpering about laws and stuff that they pull out of their behinds. Ooh, and techs blackballing members of piano forums hehe. I guess they will soon have no clients. The only people not on these forums are those who don't have computers, which is pretty much a dying breed.

#92125 - 11/14/08 04:50 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Jeez this thread is horrifying.

I'm only buying digitals from now on!!

(by mail order!)


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#92126 - 11/14/08 05:32 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Thank you...

Yes, I am sorely disappointed and angry that they contacted Mr. Kehe first and personally insulted me without giving me a chance or time to explain myself.

This misunderstanding could have been resolved rather easily otherwise... I do not deserve this.

#92127 - 11/14/08 09:27 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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those of you who have objected to the op,are disgusting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I too have learned who i would never do business with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! smokinAs business men you would be very smart to delete your own personal,self centered remarks!! The op has said i'm sorry and that should be enough!!
Perhaps those of you with such hatred in your hearts,should have lived in the era where they burned witches!!! Maybe in such an era you would have had more support!!!!! Shame,shame,shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!
And now back to my vacation in the west,having a great time! smile


Terry C.


Proud owner of a Rebuilt 1912 Feurich concert grand with the new Phoenix system.
5th generation piano makers
Gotta love that German Craftsmanship
http://www.flickr.com/photos/Feurich_Fanatic/
#92128 - 11/14/08 10:00 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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I totally agree with Horowitzian and sotto voce Steven.

That was way out of order in my opinion.

#92129 - 11/14/08 10:35 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Unless this quotation was subject to a non disclosure agreement or some other legally binding agreement that Avant entered into, he has done nothing at all wrong.

It is absolutely the same as asking on this forum whether the price of a TV from Walmart is a good price.....

#92130 - 11/14/08 10:48 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
It is absolutely the same as asking on this forum whether the price of a TV from Walmart is a good price.....
This is where I disagree. A Walmart price is VERY impersonal and no reputation on the line. He didn't do anything "wrong" just inconsiderate. I also thought it was "strange" that, in a previous post, he posted pics of the tech on the forum and kept giving his name.


There are always issues that come up in any close working relationship (UNLIKE WALMART TRANSACTIONS) and forum readers might miss the part of the story where issues get resolved in the end and everyone walks away happy.

Maybe not for the same exact reasons as some of the techs have said, but if I were the tech, I wouldn't want to work with someone who disclosed everything on line. My concern would be for the post restore repercussions. It seems that even some minor issue has the potential to be memorialized on the internet as a big deal.

If it were me, I would have only mentioned the tech's name on the group AFTER the restoration and ONLY if I was extremely happy or extremely dissappointed with the work *and it could not be resolved*.

Meta

#92131 - 11/14/08 11:00 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
Originally posted by text:
It is absolutely the same as asking on this forum whether the price of a TV from Walmart is a good price.....
I don't think so! Nowhere did I get the impression that Avantgardenabi was asking whether it was a good price.

The baseless notion that he was shopping around and expected that a competitor might come forward with a lower price is, unfortunately, taking on a life of its own and—unless he acknowledges that this was indeed the case—really needs to end.

Does anyone who has followed this saga for months seriously think there was anything else going on besides the sharing of personal joy with people who have expressed their interest and support in this restoration project?

Steven

#92132 - 11/14/08 11:00 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Jerry Groot RPT
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Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#92133 - 11/14/08 11:01 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
Originally posted by text:
Unless this quotation was subject to a non disclosure agreement or some other legally binding agreement that Avant entered into, he has done nothing at all wrong.

It is absolutely the same as asking on this forum whether the price of a TV from Walmart is a good price.....
With the exception of divulging specific names, I agree in totality.

There was no confidentiality requested or agreed to.

I don't see the difference between this case and posts containing prices paid for specific pianos from specific dealerships. Those are actual executed, "in-force" sales contracts.

What am I missing?


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Since 1937.

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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
#92134 - 11/14/08 11:03 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jerry Groot RPT:
It is a matter of principal and common sense which so many people today have very little of.
If so many people today have very little of it, then it's not common, is it?

I repeat my request for an explanation of what principles and common sense—the ones you take for granted that everyone should apparently know by osmosis or intuition—have been violated.

And to the extent that they were (even though it has yet to be explained why), why did some participants in this discussion express themselves quite so hatefully? Is that a defensible reaction?

Steven

#92135 - 11/14/08 11:12 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jerry Groot RPT:
What actually amazes me in reading some of the posts defending him is this.

It is a matter of principal and common sense which so many people today have very little of. While he may not have intended to offend anyone or whatever, it did offend many us here.

Yet, HE is allowed off practically Scott free but, those of us who jumped all over him for HIS mistake of posting the name etc., which was the main complaint, are now being bashed and threatened never to be used? Not that I care about that part of it. I wouldn't want a client like that anyway!

That's like a kid being naughty and someone saying, ohhh welll, he just didn't know any better. Well, you know what? He does now! [Big Grin]

There are always excuses to be made but nothing stands in the way of common sense and reasoning but other people defending it.

If it offends technicians, it's okay. They're nobody, get over it. But, if it offends YOU, or others, now it's a different story and then, it's not okay. Double standard.

I've seen plenty of you other people here going at it tooth and nail when you disagree on something. But, we can't do it? Another double standard.
Quote
Originally posted by Silverwood Pianos:
This poster knows absolutely NOTHING about civil law.

And it could cost you dearly.....as much as the quote itself if the fellow is not awarded the job now. You have really checkmated yourself into a corner.

Call a civil lawyer right now and tell him or her what you have done. They will tell you exactly what I am telling you...... you are a damn fool.......

yeah I finally got angry with a member here......

where is that wood pile and the axe.....
Jerry - if you fail to see why people are defending the OP, you need to take another look at the thread. No one has called you or any other tech "a #%$! fool" even though Dan's enthusiam to drag to OP to court certainly renders him a candidate.


The posts are coming from inside the house! Repeat, the posts are coming from inside the house!
#92136 - 11/14/08 11:15 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Posting the persons name, phone number etc., from a business stand point is what we believe most of all to be non-ethical and incorrect.

Simply stating numbers is one thing. But, posting the quote itself is with phone numbers etc., is where most business owners take issue with it.

Has anyone bothered to think of how many times, this persons picture, name, phone number etc., has been posted so far? Could this just possibly, be a sneaky way to advertise for him?


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#92137 - 11/14/08 11:23 AM Re: Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jerry Groot RPT:
It's been explained before. Scroll back and read it. Posting the persons name, phone number etc., from a business stand point is what WE believe to be non-ethical and/or politically incorrect.

[...] As I said, you people can come down on each other for things that you disagree with but, we can't?
Sure, but just don't take it for granted that what's considered common sense "from a business standpoint" would be known to (or foreseen by) laypeople.

I'd like to understand what accounts for such a difference in understanding. I think the fact that Silverwood, in particular, was so obviously out for blood as to spark a backlash has hampered an opportunity to educate the public about what you consider to be the obvious ethical issue here—and, likewise, for you to learn why we are having trouble comprehending it.

Steven

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