Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Update 3: My Knabe Grand Piano's Rebuilding Estimate. :)

Of the general public today, what percentage have the wish to buy a piano? Of that percentage, what percentage wish to buy an old geezer of a piano that has seen better days? Of that percentage, what percentage wish to restore that piano to its original potential and invest heavily in doing so knowing full well that the total cost will almost certainly never be recouped?

Here we have such an individual, yet some otherwise very rational members of the rebuilding community are doing everything short of driving a stake through his/her heart. Go figure.

Agreed. Certain techs owe the OP apologies. This was absolutely over the top.

I don't agree with the OP posting those pics, and I'm glad he removed them.

But the fact remains that certain members here who call themselves professionals acted in a completely shabby, *UN*professional fashion.

The OP admitted he comes from a different culture and didn't understand our conventions of doing business. He has stood corrected. He has removed the offending pics. Enough is enough.

We may have lost a good contributor due to uncalled for vitriol.

Well put, JDelmore!

I couldn't agree with you more.

And nothing about what is apparently taken for granted to be common sense, ethics and good judgment—in the piano rebuilding community.

Why should he or she?

When I saw those pictures last night, my only concern was that the OP's name was visible. It never occurred to me that there was anything improper, inappropriate, illegal or even tacky about sharing the proposal itself, and I've lived right here in the U.S. for 52 years.

I'm not saying there was nothing wrong with posting pictures of the contract—only that I didn't realize it and never would have foreseen it. I would have had to be told.

If ignorance is no defense, how about an honest mistake? How is one supposed to know something that is presumed to be common sense—but is not common sense, after all? If I had no idea of any wrongdoing, how would a foreign national less than half my age whose own culture explicitly embraces such actions be expected to know?

Haven't we all made honest mistakes? I think that any number of reactions in this thread were just horrible—especially the suggestion that the OP's motivation was to be solicited by competitors who might then undercut the price in the proposal.

And still, no one seems to have explained why this was such a huge misstep—legally or ethically—as to elicit the reactions that it has. That someone would be so mean-spirited as to say things like "I hope you get your butt sued" and "you are a damn fool......." amazes me, as does the fact that this poster couldn't even give the OP the benefit of the doubt and time to respond (and remove the offending pictures) before writing, "I have just had a conversation with this company by telephone. I then sent them the link. After all should they not be made aware?"

Steven

Actually, I don't think there has been any definitive clarity on civil law, standard business practices or even ethics produced here.

Interestingly enough at least one of those expressing outrage has been on record on other "threat threads" making accusations and putting down customers in a very one-sided, short-sighted and negative fashion. The anti-customer (sour grapes?) reaction here is completely in character.

It someone has shot themselves in the foot, it certainly has not been the OP.

aventgardenabie, in my book you have done nothing wrong except for being modern, open, savvy, transparent, trusting, diligent and apparently also passionate about your piano plans. The piano industry is one example of a slowly dying out "horse whip and buggy industry" some of whose members and their dated attitudes and business practices will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into this century or who, predictably, will be left abandoned and dejected at the side of the road lamenting the days when their services were in greater demand and customers who had no information to protect themselves could easily be led by the nose to slaughter.

I can only imagine how much more valuable the "price paid" threads in for example the digital and piano forums would be if all posts would be required to be accompanied by a scan of the firm signed quote or store receipt to be accepted. That would put an end to at least one complaint leveled at these threads that the so-called prices paid are bogus.

Avant -- You have nothing to worry about, and you have apologized more than enough. If you noticed, the only people that made a big fuss are mostly in the business, where they like to deal behind a cloak of secrecy. I'm enjoying all of their pathetic whining and whimpering about laws and stuff that they pull out of their behinds. Ooh, and techs blackballing members of piano forums hehe. I guess they will soon have no clients. The only people not on these forums are those who don't have computers, which is pretty much a dying breed.

Jeez this thread is horrifying.

I'm only buying digitals from now on!!

(by mail order!)

Thank you...

Yes, I am sorely disappointed and angry that they contacted Mr. Kehe first and personally insulted me without giving me a chance or time to explain myself.

This misunderstanding could have been resolved rather easily otherwise... I do not deserve this.

those of you who have objected to the op,are disgusting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I too have learned who i would never do business with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As business men you would be very smart to delete your own personal,self centered remarks!! The op has said i'm sorry and that should be enough!!
Perhaps those of you with such hatred in your hearts,should have lived in the era where they burned witches!!! Maybe in such an era you would have had more support!!!!! Shame,shame,shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!
And now back to my vacation in the west,having a great time!


Terry C.

I totally agree with Horowitzian and sotto voce Steven.

That was way out of order in my opinion.

Unless this quotation was subject to a non disclosure agreement or some other legally binding agreement that Avant entered into, he has done nothing at all wrong.

It is absolutely the same as asking on this forum whether the price of a TV from Walmart is a good price.....

This is where I disagree. A Walmart price is VERY impersonal and no reputation on the line. He didn't do anything "wrong" just inconsiderate. I also thought it was "strange" that, in a previous post, he posted pics of the tech on the forum and kept giving his name.


There are always issues that come up in any close working relationship (UNLIKE WALMART TRANSACTIONS) and forum readers might miss the part of the story where issues get resolved in the end and everyone walks away happy.

Maybe not for the same exact reasons as some of the techs have said, but if I were the tech, I wouldn't want to work with someone who disclosed everything on line. My concern would be for the post restore repercussions. It seems that even some minor issue has the potential to be memorialized on the internet as a big deal.

If it were me, I would have only mentioned the tech's name on the group AFTER the restoration and ONLY if I was extremely happy or extremely dissappointed with the work *and it could not be resolved*.

Meta

I don't think so! Nowhere did I get the impression that Avantgardenabi was asking whether it was a good price.

The baseless notion that he was shopping around and expected that a competitor might come forward with a lower price is, unfortunately, taking on a life of its own and—unless he acknowledges that this was indeed the case—really needs to end.

Does anyone who has followed this saga for months seriously think there was anything else going on besides the sharing of personal joy with people who have expressed their interest and support in this restoration project?

Steven

With the exception of divulging specific names, I agree in totality.

There was no confidentiality requested or agreed to.

I don't see the difference between this case and posts containing prices paid for specific pianos from specific dealerships. Those are actual executed, "in-force" sales contracts.

What am I missing?

If so many people today have very little of it, then it's not common, is it?

I repeat my request for an explanation of what principles and common sense—the ones you take for granted that everyone should apparently know by osmosis or intuition—have been violated.

And to the extent that they were (even though it has yet to be explained why), why did some participants in this discussion express themselves quite so hatefully? Is that a defensible reaction?

Steven

Jerry - if you fail to see why people are defending the OP, you need to take another look at the thread. No one has called you or any other tech "a #%$! fool" even though Dan's enthusiam to drag to OP to court certainly renders him a candidate.

Posting the persons name, phone number etc., from a business stand point is what we believe most of all to be non-ethical and incorrect.

Simply stating numbers is one thing. But, posting the quote itself is with phone numbers etc., is where most business owners take issue with it.

Has anyone bothered to think of how many times, this persons picture, name, phone number etc., has been posted so far? Could this just possibly, be a sneaky way to advertise for him?

Sure, but just don't take it for granted that what's considered common sense "from a business standpoint" would be known to (or foreseen by) laypeople.

I'd like to understand what accounts for such a difference in understanding. I think the fact that Silverwood, in particular, was so obviously out for blood as to spark a backlash has hampered an opportunity to educate the public about what you consider to be the obvious ethical issue here—and, likewise, for you to learn why we are having trouble comprehending it.

Steven