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I am against all those things. And it's not something I hear about - it's something I see everyday (I work in bio-med engineering field). If you've ever wondered why everything that has to do with health/hospitals is so expensive, then socialized medicine is your answer.

The solution is not more government's meddling, bureaucracy, and entitlements. The solution is to allow - and require - people to take personal responsibility for their health by separating medicine and state.

Somebody once said:
"If you think health care is expensive now, wait till it’s free"

I hope my kids won't have to find out about that - because free health care for all, will ultimately translate into 50-90% of your income taken at the gunpoint to support the corrupt system.

I personally have absolutely no clue what people have against universal health care or some socialist reform of the health industry. I live in TX and I get taxed like heck, on top of that I have to pay for my own insurance, and on top of that I have to pay 20% of my health costs(before my insurance pays the other 80%). I have lived and worked in Europe, and I can say, that yes, taxes are high, but you also get some of the best medical care, for free. When you consider how many taxes you pay in the US, it comes out to be pretty close to what you pay in let's say Germany or France. At least in my case, I am in a high tax bracket. So, am I for Universal health care? Heck yeah, that'd be just one less thing to worry about. In the US most people are insured through their employer, imagine what happens to you if you lose your job and the next day you're diagnosed with cancer or something? What will you do besides go broke? I am not at all for receiving handouts from the government, that is not what I am talking about. I worked hard through college, work hard at my job, pay my taxes and obey the law, if I ever lose my job and find myself in financial trouble, it would be nice to know that at least don't have to worry about my health insurance.

I pay over $23,000 in taxes every year from my job alone; that doesn't include property taxes, sales tax, school taxes, etc. I'd like to get something more for my $$ other than corrupt politicians, mickey-mouse administrations and unjust, unnecessary wars.

USAPianoTrucker:

The phrase "separation of medicine and state" is intentional. Same goes for more general "separation of economics and state".

Republicans don't get the idea behind "separation of church and state", Democrats don't understand "separation of economics and state". That's why I'm a Libertarian.

People tend to support universal healthcare, because they look at the skyrocketing prices of medical services. Those high prices wouldn't be there if the entire industry was privatized. Competition works wonders when prices are concerned.

Universal healthcare is an inherently unfair system. I take care of my body - I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't eat fast food. Why should I be forced to pay for treatment of an overweight smoker, with an aclohol problem?
Everybody should be responsible for their own life - if we removed the "socialist" factor from medicine, we'd end up with services at much lower price, and everybody could buy their own health care plan at a fraction of the cost.

When I get a chance, I'll give you some medical horror stories from the "socialized medicine" capital of the world - Sweden...

By the way - the website you mentioned, is not my website - but I do find the list of terrorist attacks useful. And even after you compensate for its obvious bias, it's still clear which group can't quite play along with the rest of the world - and no it's not the Eskimos...

jsalzer:

You complain about spending $23,000. Guess what - if the state wasn't taking that money only to distribute it, you'd only have to spend 1/10th of that amount - you could allocate the rest for anything you please (including private health insurance). Government's only job should be protecting its citizens (military and police).

Unfortunatelly the way it is, you'll never see that money. But you should be happy - because you're basically paying medical expenses for a bunch of bums, too lazy to get their own jobs. You and me may not be looking for a handout - but most other people are - it's human nature.

Public health care stinks (same goes for public schools - and pretty much everything else "public") - that's why given a choice, if cost wasn't an issue I'd always go to a private specialist. They tend to care more, because that's how they make a living.


Socialism = everybody gets what they need.
Capitalism = everybody gets what they deserve.

So true, so true. Socialists get universal health care. Capitalists get George W. Bush.

i'm all for 'Universal health care', but it has to be a 'bottom line' system (i.e. bare minimum), and any additional services should be covered with additional insurance people are free to choose. i believe that's the only system could work without either asking government to tax too much on it or people playing too much for the mandatory insurance.

the problem with all current and past proposals of such a system is that they want to include everything and end up with nothing.

as to the orginal question, i'd say: 'as long as NO Rice'.

The communist health care plan is just part of an agenda to phase in the big brother verichip system...

Lets see I need..dental implants..Lasik for my nearsightness.. hip/knee(both) replacements..
if I went to Europe..what would it cost?

A friend had a little accident while visiting France. An ambulance picked him up and he received a few stitches and maybe some x-rays.

$40.

I do a bit of tour-guiding in France, and occasionally have to take a tourist to the doctor or pharmacist. I remember one time when someone forgot their perscription medicine. Even though it was a generic it was outrageously expensive in the US, and the fellow was worried he wouldn't be able to afford it even if we did find it. We were surprised to find the same medicine (but not generic!) available over the counter, and very cheap.

There is NO such thing as free health care. Anyone that tries to tell you that is either a liar or ignorant. Ultimately the money comes from your pocket - but you are now paying not only for yourself, but for those that are worse off. Not to mention all the additional costs of bureaucratic wealth re-distribution. The person that mentioned $40 bill in France - you wouldn't be so happy if you were the French taxpayer who helped you pay that bill...

The following is just a few links that show "socialized medicine" for what it really is - another utopian idea, from the people that never learn:
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"A Short Course in Brain Surgery"
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. Universal Health Coverage --- Call It Socialized Medicine
[Online essay] Lawrence Huntoon, MD, PhD, discusses why "universal health care" is synonymous with "socialized medicine". He also observes:
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"Why Are Health Costs Rising?"

PianoTrucker - I'm not calling you stupid - just the people who think money grows on trees.

I'd say it's more because of igorance, but then again - there's not much to be said about a system where 2 idiots have more power than 1 noble prize winner...


Actually it's just the opposite. Politicians are being lobbied by bussiness. What's good for the bussiness is usualy good for the country and citizens. When economy is strong, everybody benefits. The real problem are populist politicians. That kind gets votes by promising people free healthcare, more welfare etc.(conveniently skirting the issue of higher taxes). They love nothing more than spending other people's money.

Industry lobbysts are a necessary evil, because they counter populists' ludicrous demands.
If populists had their way, we'd be all living in Soviet Union type countries right now...

an universal health care plan doesn't have to coincide with the communist one, and therefore, it's pointless to mention that.

the key of a sucessful universal health care system, as i believe, must be a minimum coverage system (which means no knee surgery, heart surgery or anything beyond the bare minimum medical needs), or else no government can either afford it or we'd all have to pay like 40-50% income tax to cover it. anything beyond minimum coverage will be optional for people with additional insurance.

I'm all for social programs that help people that cannot otherwise help themselves. What scares me about socialized medicine is that it's one more welfare program that the government will be in charge of. I can't remember the exact quote (or who said it) but it goes something like this, "A government big enough to give you everything you need is also big enough to take away everything you want".

From the sources I presented it's clear that socialized medicine will lead to shortages - and eventually government rationing. It's not just some pie-in-the-sky theory - it happens every time socialists try to present us with workers' paradise on earth. If all of a sudden you made all plasma TV's free - you'd end up with no TVs in stores the next day.
Or they'd end up having to work twice as many hours to make the ends meet after paying all the extra taxes that pay for "free" healthcare...

USAPianotTrucker - we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, unless you can provide me with some compelling evidence that socialism can somehow outperform free market economy. History has shown time and time again it can't.

As far as war in Iraq - I don't remember sharing my views on it in this thread. And you seem to assume that just because I'm anti-socialism, I'm in pro-Bush camp. Like I stated before - my political views are most closely aligned to Libertarian way of thinking. In other words - I hate commie Democrats, just as much as I despise fundie Republicans. The former don't understand separation of economy and state, while the latter just can't accept separation of church and state.

With 20/20 hindsight, it should be obvious to anyone, that we have no business there. If anything I'd be much more concerned about Iran. And when it comes to terrorism - the first step in fighting it is throwing out political correctness bull-crap. We are not fighting terrorists - we're fighting Islamic fundamentalists, and Saddam of all people was doing a great job keeping those nuts in check.