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Can my dream come true? #915872
04/20/03 09:42 PM
04/20/03 09:42 PM
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Chris Rossoni Offline OP
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DO you think it is possible for me to make it to Juliard? I just started playing about 11 months ago. I am playing things like Mozarts K.545, claire de lune, sonatina by handel in a-, and other songs at that level. My problem is it always seems like my dreams slip away because of a late start, or something because of my disadvantage.. I wonder if it is possible to compete against the greater musicians in the world with such a late start...

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Re: Can my dream come true? #915873
04/20/03 09:51 PM
04/20/03 09:51 PM
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Posts: 309
Decatur, Illinois, USA
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Mathilde Offline
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Sure, why not? How old are you?

But one question: What do you want to do after Juilliard? That's the most important thing, IMO. Gotta take the long-term view.

You do know that a Juilliard degree isn't a guarantee of anything, yes? It's not a guarantee of a glossy performing career, or a juicy post teaching music to privileged private school children, or a career as a professor of piano at Juilliard.

Here in our downstate Rust Belt public school system, my daughter's Middle School band director has a degree from Juilliard. I have no idea whether she got more money from the school board because of it, but I seriously doubt it.

Re: Can my dream come true? #915874
04/20/03 09:54 PM
04/20/03 09:54 PM
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Chris Rossoni Offline OP
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i am 16, which makes it worse

Re: Can my dream come true? #915875
04/20/03 10:04 PM
04/20/03 10:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 297
Cowtown
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I am in the same boat and would absolutely love to go to the Julliard or another prestigeous music school.

Do grades in school effect getting in or is it a purely musical descision by the school.

I am caught in the middle of wanting to go to music school and going to a good university.

What are your opinions on this? Do you think that it would be wise to go to university first and then go to a music school or should I just choose one?

Thankyou for your imput and I'm sorry Chris Rossini if you feel that I 'high-jacked' your thread, I truly didn't mean to.


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Re: Can my dream come true? #915876
04/20/03 10:06 PM
04/20/03 10:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Kreisler Offline
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Doubtful. Schools tend to pay based on degree or hours towards a degree. They usually don't care where the degree came from, which is why a lot of teachers go back to get Masters degrees from the cheapest/closest school they can find.

You're right about a Juilliard degree not guaranteeing anything. It's also very possible to build an academic or performing career without a degree from Juilliard, NEC, Peabody, Eastman, etc...

It's all about hard work and initiative. The name on the diploma can help, but not as much as you might think.

The music world these days is such that people will respect degrees from a wide range of institutions. Juilliard does not have a monopoly on excellence. It's an excellent school, but it's not the only one, and there are more excellent schools out there today than there were 20 or even 10 years ago.

Also, the most important thing is the quality of education and teacher you get. If you can get the best teacher and education for you at Juilliard, then go. If you can get it at the University of Oklahoma or Florida State, then go. (And I know a few people from the likes of OU and FSU who beat Juilliard grads in academic job searches.)


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: Can my dream come true? #915877
04/20/03 10:06 PM
04/20/03 10:06 PM
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Chris Rossoni Offline OP
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no, i was wondering the same things

Re: Can my dream come true? #915878
04/20/03 11:11 PM
04/20/03 11:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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Hey Chris,I don't want to sound like a gray cloud,but at 16 you would need to know at least half the Chopin Etudes,Beethoven Sonatas,Bach's Well-Tempered,and at least 2 complete Concertos to even have a chance at getting accepted into Juliard.Send for their catologue to see first hand their entrance requirements,you will be astounded.Develop your repetoire,there are other great music schools with less stringent requirements that could take a look at.Believe me,Juliard is'nt for the faint of heart. smile


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
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Re: Can my dream come true? #915879
04/20/03 11:47 PM
04/20/03 11:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 309
Decatur, Illinois, USA
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Mathilde Offline
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Juilliard's website.

Academic requirements.
http://www.juilliard.edu/admissions/generalap.html
Quote
Juilliard does not require the SAT, ACT, or Achievement tests. However, the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) and the Test of Written English (TWE) will be required of students for whom English is not a native language. The minimum required TOEFL score is 533 for the paper-based TOEFL or a 200 for the computer-based TOEFL exam.

In addition to the general requirements and procedures for admission to The Juilliard School, please note the following:

Drama and Music candidates must be high school graduates or have earned the equivalent of a high school diploma.

Dance candidates must either be high school graduates, or have earned the equivalent of a high school diploma, or apply under the Early Admissions program. Early Admissions candidates apply during their junior year in high school and must be at least 16 years old upon matriculation. They must be highly talented, strongly endorsed by their principal teachers and school counselors, and show evidence of exceptional maturity.

Dance and Music applicants must present official transcripts of high school and college grades from all schools attended. Dance applicants must also submit a health form. Drama applicants need to submit these credentials only after their acceptance by that division.

Many departments require applicants to submit a videotape or standard cassette tape of the required audition repertoire with their application for pre-screening purposes. Please refer to the application on the Unified Application for Conservatory Admission Web site for specifics. The Admissions Office will notify applicants regarding their eligibility for a personal audition.
So you can apply under their Early Admissions program during your junior year of high school, but you'll need strong endorsements from teachers, a lot of maturity, and an audition.

Juilliard is basically a "college for performers". Is that what you had in mind?

Re: Can my dream come true? #915880
04/20/03 11:50 PM
04/20/03 11:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Kreisler Offline
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Where I work (a fairly large public university), auditions are handled like this:

You apply to both the university and the music school.

The university makes your academic transcript and test scores available to the faculty of the music school. The faculty then hears your audition and decides whether or not to admit you. While grades and test scores might be a factor, the audition itself is the single most important deciding factor in admission decisions. Generally speaking, if the faculty is happy with your playing and you meet the minimum requirements for admission to the university, you're in.

Also, it is important to attend a major music school at some point in your academic career. It's not terribly important when or for what degree. What I often recommend to others (and what I did) is to do your undergraduate degree at a university where you won't get lost in the crowd, study with full-time faculty, and have lots of performance opportunties - then hit a major music school for your graduate degree(s). It's also cheaper that way. There's nothing wrong (or harmful to your future career) with going to Cheap State University - provided you have a good teacher and a solid educational experience.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: Can my dream come true? #915881
04/21/03 01:08 AM
04/21/03 01:08 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 175
Los Angeles, California
Zephyr Offline
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Quote
Originally Posted By Curry:
Hey Chris,I don't want to sound like a gray cloud,but at 16 you would need to know at least half the Chopin Etudes,Beethoven Sonatas,Bach's Well-Tempered,and at least 2 complete Concertos to even have a chance at getting accepted into Juliard.
I agree. Julliard is not easy to get into. I auditioned with Beethoven's Appasionata, Chopin's 4th ballade and etude op.10 no.1, and prokofiev's tocatta and I still got rejected. I also found out that out of 1654 people that applied, only 136 got accepted, which is 8.2% of the applicants!!!!


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else's type of thinking- William James
Re: Can my dream come true? #915882
04/21/03 01:17 AM
04/21/03 01:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,046
Portland, Oregon
.rvaga* Offline
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Portland, Oregon
Kreisler is excatly right. The process is handled much the same in all colleges/universities. We relied (I retired a few years ago) very much on the audition, but recommendations could carry equal or even greater weight. In other words, sometimes it's who you know, and who that person knows. Not unfair at all, it's a big help in screening.

Quote
Kreisler:
The music world these days is such that people will respect degrees from a wide range of institutions. Juilliard does not have a monopoly on excellence. It's an excellent school, but it's not the only one, and there are more excellent schools out there today than there were 20 or even 10 years ago.
Absolutely true. Over the previous decades, wonderful performer/teachers have decided to teach where they want to teach, instead of scrambling for name institutions. Sometimes, this can be a small school (small liberal arts college, less pressure, great facilities, positive faculty members in a friendly environment, etc.), or a region of the country that suits the teacher.

And then afterwards, again, it's often who knows whom, in the job search.

By the way. . . if you were looking for a job now, it is about as bad as it was in the early 1980's, from what I've heard. Institutions in higher education will be declaring financial exigency, with corresponding layoffs of tenured faculty (possible) and cutbacks in full-time faculty. Oh well, by the time you finish graduate school, things should be better!

Re: Can my dream come true? #915883
04/21/03 07:24 AM
04/21/03 07:24 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,744
McAllen, TX
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Brendan Offline
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I auditioned also and was shunned (both for BM and for MM).

The playing was fine, but I think the problem was that I auditioned cold and didn't make any contact with the teacher that I wanted to study with (Kaplinsky). A friend of mine was accepted; he may not be the best pianist in the world in terms of consistency and technique but his communication skills (verbal and at the piano) are excellent.

What Dr. Vaga said was right on. It's not what you play or what you know; it's who you know. Plus, from what some professors who went to Julliard tell me, the quality is getting worse.

Re: Can my dream come true? #915884
04/21/03 08:33 AM
04/21/03 08:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Kreisler Offline
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I was rejected at Eastman and Rice for the same reason - not making any contact and going in cold. My major mistake was applying to the school and not to the teacher. They asked who I wanted to study with and I said "I don't know."

DOH! I was young and stupid then. smile

rvaga is also correct about the current job market. I was applying for jobs two years ago and put out 8 applications, got two interviews, and took the first job I was offered. This year, there haven't been nearly as many job openings. I have a friend who is currently jobless even though she's a stronger candidate than I was two years ago. Another friend of mine is on the search committee for a piano job at a mid to low sized state university for which there were 150 applicants for the position.

Next year looks to be worse, as several states have mandated cuts at public colleges and universities. Many faculty (myself included) are hesitant to leave the positions they're in - we're holding on to what we have for dear life! smile


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: Can my dream come true? #915885
04/21/03 08:49 AM
04/21/03 08:49 AM
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Posts: 5,744
McAllen, TX
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Brendan Offline
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Well, I have 5 years or so before I have to start looking, so hopefully things will turn around by then. So far, I've made my billions by doing collaborative work.

However, I could always just go win a major international competition, which should make the college job search easier for me.[/sarcasm]

Re: Can my dream come true? #915886
04/21/03 10:47 AM
04/21/03 10:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,073
Toronto
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Googlism Offline
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Toronto
Quote
Hey Chris,I don't want to sound like a gray cloud,but at 16 you would need to know at least half the Chopin Etudes
What if you have small hands and can't even play any of them? What happens then? Will you be excused to learn them but need to learn the Beeth'vn Sonatas? Is it absolutely necessary to be able to play Chopin Etudes?




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"... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn."

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Re: Can my dream come true? #915887
04/21/03 11:09 AM
04/21/03 11:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 273
England
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From Julliard's site:

Undergraduate: Bachelor of Music and Diploma

All undergraduate applicants must submit a standard CD or cassette tape with the application. Current pre-college students are exempt. The tape should include only Nos. 2 and 3 from the audition repertoire. Name and address should appear on both the tape and the tape cover. The entire audition program should reach a minimum of 45 minutes. Shorter programs may be subject to approval by the piano faculty.

A prelude and fugue from The Well-Tempered Clavier or another work of Bach containing a fugue. (No transcriptions are permitted.)
An entire sonata by Beethoven excluding Opp. 14, 49, and 79, or the Haydn Sonata in Eb Major, Hob. XVI:52, or the Mozart Sonata in D Major, K. 576, or one of the following Schubert sonatas: C Major, Op. 78; A Minor, Op. 143; A Minor, Op. 42; D Major, Op. 53, or one of the three posthumous sonatas, or the Wanderer Fantasie .
A substantial composition by Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Liszt, or Mendelssohn. (Etudes, nocturnes, short dances or comparable pieces are not acceptable.)
A work by a representative 20th-century composer.
One virtuosic etude by Bartók, Chopin, Debussy, Liszt, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, or Stravinsky.

Re: Can my dream come true? #915888
04/21/03 11:15 AM
04/21/03 11:15 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,749
Chicago
kluurs Offline
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Best thing is to build a relationship with a teacher there. Second best thing is to build a relationship with someone who has a strong relationship there -- either as a colleague or a former student of the teacher you wish to study with. Some teachers will "feed" their best students to faculty at Julliard they know. It does help to know someone.

Ken

Re: Can my dream come true? #915889
04/21/03 11:16 AM
04/21/03 11:16 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,749
Chicago
kluurs Offline
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It also helps to be able to read anything at sight and have no major technical hurdles...

sigh....

Ken

Re: Can my dream come true? #915890
04/21/03 11:22 AM
04/21/03 11:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,654
New York City
Phlebas Offline
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Both Kreisler and Mathilde make excellent points in their posts.
I started piano at the age of 15, and at the time thought it would be great to get into Julliard, Curtis or some other heavyweight conservatory. That was a dream. My main objective, though, was becoming a better musician, building repertoire and developing my technique.
It is fine to have a dream like admission to Julliard, but the reality is there are hundreds of very good players who get rejected every year from that school alone. In other words, there is nothing wrong with working up an audition for Julliard if you and your teacher agree that you are advanced enough to handle the repertoire for the audition. Just make sure there are other schools where you audition, and don't set yourself up for major disappointment if you do not gain admission to your #1 choice.
Before you even do that, you should look deep within yourself, and decide whether you have the will, inclination, dedication - oh yes - and the love for music to pursue a degree and/or a career in music. It is extremely difficult, requires a lot of hard work, and for the most part is not glamorous. Also, as was said by - I think - Mathilde, what do you want to do with a music degree?

Re: Can my dream come true? #915891
04/21/03 12:55 PM
04/21/03 12:55 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,749
Chicago
kluurs Offline
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Good points have been made above. I'll add my own experience.

For a time I worked for a conservatory where I saw talented musicians of yesteryear who were virtually starving -- making a subsistence level of existence. It wasn't pretty for these proud and talented people who had made a commitment to music and once toured throughout the world.

Fortunately, I've been gifted with a crippling lack of the basic building blocks for a career in music.

That is, I am a poor sight reader, can barely count, take forever to memorize a piece and am terrified of public performance.

Still, I love music (all kinds) and love playing -- so for 40 years I've stumbled forward. I've built a career elsewhere but have nurtured my love of music with a very decent piano that I might have difficulty having even with a Julliard degree.

I don't have to learn any pieces I don't want to. I can afford lessons with even the best of teachers -- attend numerous recitals and have a bountiful CD collection to listen to.

Music plays in my office all day. I know where my next meal is coming from.

I think most performers and teachers would tell you to get a diversified education to help prepare yourself for both a means of earning an income -- and a life with music -- even if it isn't in music.

Ken

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