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#915635 - 01/14/08 01:17 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10
Mac777 Offline
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Mac777  Offline
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Queensland AUSTRALIA
"""JerryS88
Full Member
Member # 16113

Icon 1 posted 13 January, 2008 05:59 PM Profile for JerryS88 Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote That's it? Use the body in a natural way, use the elbow as a hinge, keep the bench at the exact correct height, determine how far your elbow hangs naturally from your body, and you will be able to play this left hand passage? Sorry, Mac777, this all seems very vague and general to me. I'm having a hard time believing that's all there is to it.

By the way, I don't appreciate your condescending tone here and the rather cowardly way you chose to exit this thread. If you have something to share, share it, if you disagree, disagree, but I think everyone posting here does so because they believe they are offering helpful advice. There are ways of disagreeing in a respectful way, and I think all the people who have posted here deserve respect. Nothing wrong with refuting other's ideas, but what exactly do you offer instead? (That's a rhetorical question - truthfully you've lost my interest in what you have to say)."""

#####
ahhh ... i'm not a very giving person

$500 an hour and i can show u ... then u too can have the effortless technique to play some MUSIC

with some business sense ... you too can be in demand at retire at age 50 odd to go fishing

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#915636 - 01/14/08 01:20 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Mac777 Offline
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Mac777  Offline
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Queensland AUSTRALIA
"""JerryS88
Full Member
Member # 16113

Icon 1 posted 13 January, 2008 05:59 PM Profile for JerryS88 Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote That's it? Use the body in a natural way, use the elbow as a hinge, keep the bench at the exact correct height, determine how far your elbow hangs naturally from your body, and you will be able to play this left hand passage? Sorry, Mac777, this all seems very vague and general to me. I'm having a hard time believing that's all there is to it.

By the way, I don't appreciate your condescending tone here and the rather cowardly way you chose to exit this thread. If you have something to share, share it, if you disagree, disagree, but I think everyone posting here does so because they believe they are offering helpful advice. There are ways of disagreeing in a respectful way, and I think all the people who have posted here deserve respect. Nothing wrong with refuting other's ideas, but what exactly do you offer instead? (That's a rhetorical question - truthfully you've lost my interest in what you have to say)."""

#####
ahhh ... i'm not a very giving person

$500 an hour and i can SHOW u ... then u too can have the effortless technique to play some MUSIC

... far too many "academics " trying to explain MUSIC and piano playing through the written word ... it's a DOING thing

with some business sense ... you too can be in demand and retire at age 50 odd to go fishing

#915637 - 01/14/08 02:05 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Mac777 Offline
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Mac777  Offline
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Queensland AUSTRALIA
""That's it? Use the body in a natural way, use the elbow as a hinge, keep the bench at the exact correct height, determine how far your elbow hangs naturally from your body, and you will be able to play this left hand passage?""

you obviously did not read my first post on this thread very carefully

i said i would work my way through the entire thread ... EVERY comment so far is just a result of the first ill informed contribution i read here ....

HUNDREDS or common errors to address if i had the inclination

#915638 - 01/14/08 08:42 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Mac777 Offline
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Mac777  Offline
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Queensland AUSTRALIA
and try MOVING ur fingers !!!!!!!!!

rather than some spastic gyrations with ur forearm

#915639 - 01/15/08 11:25 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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classik51 Offline
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Canada
I thought you were gonna go fishing?

#915640 - 01/17/08 06:16 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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AJB Offline
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AJB  Offline
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England/Switzerland
Dear Mac777

Please go fishing. Whilst there, please reflect a little on the way you come across.

It is rarely useful to read posts from people who are only capable of criticism, with very little constructive input. And please, if you insist on posting, would you stop littering your sentences with uppercase words? It makes your text difficult to assimilate quickly. A basic grasp of spelling and grammar would also help you make your points, such as they are, much more clearly.

I am sure that you really can charge $500 an hour as a music teacher and that you really are an incredible businessperson who retired ever so young, but there is very little in your writing style that adds credibility to your assertions. Nor is it clear why they are relevant except as an attempt at self aggrandisement, with the presumption that it will add to your credibility. The reverse is more likely true.

We do not all need to agree with everything Kreisler says. However, his posts stimulate polite debate and many may appreciate his efforts, as a tutor and player, to be helpful. And he is always polite. This is the mark of a cultured man.

Kind regards

Adrian


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
#915641 - 01/18/08 10:36 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
Joined: Jan 2002
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Stanza Offline
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Stanza  Offline
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Chapel Hill, NC
From Brendan:

Quote

For my hands, I find a dropping motion to be helpful in maintaining freedom. A fluid, continuous up-down motion at the rate of one "drop" per bar keeps the thumb relaxed. Tension comes from being locked in the same position for an extended period of time. If you "hit the ground running" on the first beat of each bar there's a little more flexibility as opposed to trying to control it too much. Someone earlier mentioned the Kreutzer Sonata - yes, it's the same issue there as well. I found those passages very challenging until I started experimenting with dropping within a wrist motion.

The same principle can be applied to most technical issues: the octaves in Petrushka, Chopin's Thirds Etude, etc. Of course, the REAL issue is evening out tone quality and making sure that the drop doesn't produce an accent.
This is exactly what my teacher told me to do with this (actually one "drop" per beat..Down,up,up,up..Down,up,up,up..etc.)! It is great advice...your tremolos will become like riding a bike..

Also we all know Brendan has the background, training, and demonstrated expertise to lend credibility to this advice...vs someone who would rather be fishing (trolling...?)


Estonia L190 #7004
Casio PX 310
Yamaha NP 30
#915642 - 01/19/08 11:10 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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eFatz Offline
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I think to understand what Mac is saying, simply read Gyorgy Sandor's book "On Piano Playing". A lot of his ideas are very similar to Sandor's teachings (like stop playing when you feel pain, use the most economic motion to play, etc).
but true, in terms of piano playing, a lot of things cannot be simply explained in words like this. You really need someone to sit next to you and show you how things are done. Otherwise, if you mis-interpret what is written, it leads to more pain and injury..
anyway $500 an hour is ridiculous. Even Sequeira Costa doesn't charge that rate.

#915643 - 01/19/08 04:09 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
Joined: Nov 2002
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Kreisler Offline
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Iowa City, IA
That's the funny thing about Mac's posts - many of his ideas are well-established, and he seems to have some knowledge of the subject.

What I found interesting is that he dismisses Matthay as old-fashioned and dangerous, but many of Matthay's ideas are physiologically sound and in line with Sandor's thinking as well.

If I thought his comments were simply that of a disgruntled troll, I would have deleted them, but despite his combative style, his ideas do warrant attention.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#915644 - 01/19/08 08:18 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Schubertian Offline
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Physiologically sound yes - but he has the personality of a gila monster.

oh sorry -


"There is nothing more terrifying than ignorance in action." -- Goethe
#915645 - 01/21/08 07:09 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Mr_Kitty Offline
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Mr_Kitty  Offline
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Toronto
Mac knows more than you guys give him credit for (except for Kreisler).

I hope he enjoyed his fishing trip.

Seriously. Fishing is a wonderful way to relax...............and catch fish!

"His" ideas DO warrant attention. Do not dismiss them because of his combative style.

#915646 - 01/22/08 05:45 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
Joined: Oct 2005
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AJB Offline
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AJB  Offline
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England/Switzerland
The problem is, or perhaps was as mac777 has seemingly vanished, is that he was not really expressing his ideas. Rather, he was mainly being derogatory about others and then throwing a few snippets of information out. He then concluded this limited range of postings with some remarkably silly remarks about how we could benefit from his expertise for $500 an hour.

He does not seem to have grasped the purpose of a public forum.

He may have some good ideas, or at least be capable of repeating the ideas of those who taught him, but his method of expressing them is so abrasive that any gems that he may have to impart are largely obscured by the rather childish invective.


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
#915647 - 01/22/08 08:38 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Mr_Kitty Offline
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Mr_Kitty  Offline
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Vanish? He just went fishing...

#915648 - 01/23/08 04:02 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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AJB Offline
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England/Switzerland
And has not returned. We must send out a search party.

Maybe in the meantime the ideas touted could be explored?


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
#915649 - 01/24/08 12:05 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Mr_Kitty Offline
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....or the ideas trouted?
lol I shouldn't be allowed such opportunities for PUNishment.......

#915650 - 01/24/08 02:21 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
Joined: Oct 2005
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AJB Offline
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AJB  Offline
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England/Switzerland
Not to carp on about it do you think mac777 would take his payment COD? Maybe he only gives lessons at his plaice. I must say I am beginning to feel like a fish out of water in this thread, so maybe it is time to tuna up my guitar and crab a beer.


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
#915651 - 01/24/08 12:37 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Mr_Kitty Offline
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Mr_Kitty  Offline
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Okay you win, hands down. wink

#915652 - 01/24/08 08:26 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,178
Marty in Minnesota Offline

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Marty in Minnesota  Offline

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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,178
Minnesota
WOW! This is my first visit to this forum. Is this how it always goes?

When I saw that the tread was in reference to the "Pathetique", I opened it immediately as I am currently pulling this sonata out of mothballs.

I was reading Kreisler's suggestions with interest and then wham. Not good - not good.

I am still wondering if anyone has any further, and civilized suggestions on practicing the tremolo passages. For the most part, keeping relaxed and practicing in rhythms seems to be the most effective for me, but I welcome all suggestions.

Haven't we all decided on the proper bench height long ago?

Since I'm not a fisherman and don't drive a Harley, I might as well hang around here in hopes that this was an aberration.


Marty in Minnesota
#915653 - 01/25/08 08:28 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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mario 08 Offline
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Australia
This movement of the piece is all about total relaxation. Slow and steady rehearsal is the key. Shoulders need to be relaxed and wrist resting comfortably on the keyboard. Think relaxation. Think floating along. Remember your Left hand is free to ' float ' at all time arround the bass end of you piano.
Try to think of both hands working as one cohesive unit. Remember the metronome. Most important in rehearsing a piece of this nature. Remember to make much of the dynamics in this piece - this also gives you a chance to slow up a little. Remembeer that this piece ( like all pieces ) is the composers expression of his thoughts and feelings. You must adopt this approach when you are playing at all times.. Each movement of this work brings its own challenges. Just as the first movement presents the challenge of the left hand so the third movement presents a challenge of a different nature for the left hand throwing regularly to the right. The second movement has the challenge of the right hand as balanced against the left hand in sound.

Just relax and above all think of the music effect you are stricing to create. Lots of rotary exercises will help you to limber up before you start to play the first movement. Some scale to ready your fingers.

Enjoy the piece. I am doing a revision of this piece after some 20 years. I selected an Associated Board edition ( for editorial markings and clarity of print and a fine illustration of ornaments used in this piece ).


Maurice
#915654 - 01/25/08 08:35 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Kreisler Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Marty_2:
WOW! This is my first visit to this forum. Is this how it always goes?

Since I'm not a fisherman and don't drive a Harley, I might as well hang around here in hopes that this was an aberration.
This was definitely an aberration, and I plan to clean up the post pretty soon.

Welcome to the forums!


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#915655 - 01/25/08 09:57 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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AJB Offline
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Mario - what exactly do you mean by "rotary exercises"?


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
#915656 - 01/25/08 10:57 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
Joined: Feb 2007
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Marty in Minnesota Offline

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Marty in Minnesota  Offline

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Minnesota
Hi Maurice,

Thank you for your insights and suggestions.

I am not familiar with Associated Board editions. Can you provide any further info. I see that you are from Australia and wonder if these are available in the US. I would love to check out their editions.

Thanks,


Marty in Minnesota
#915657 - 01/25/08 11:21 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Mr_Kitty Offline
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You (or anyone else for that matter) will never be able to play the first movement using rotation techniques with as much speed, fluency, and control as a someone who keeps their hand still and lets the fingers do the work.
However, to achieve this level of technique takes many many hours at the piano.

If you do not practice 2000 hours a year (i.e. you have a day job) then using rotation will probably work just fine.

Good luck with this difficult sonata. Please post recordings of your progress!

#915658 - 01/25/08 02:47 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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AJB Offline
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This was why I asked the question above really. If it what I understand by rotation, then I would not have thought it the best way forward.


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
#915659 - 01/27/08 02:21 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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dreamtime Offline
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What happens if you start piano after 30? I guess you must be really done by that time smile S

"TECHNIQUE is not understood by many ... in fact MOST college / uni famous professors haven't got a clue .... TECHNIQUE is taught to YOUNG people .... it should all be in place by age 12 or so ... improved for the next couple of years ... then it's all done ... "

#915660 - 01/27/08 11:31 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Mr_Kitty Offline
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Who said that?

#915661 - 01/30/08 01:02 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Loki Offline
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Mac777 said that at the beginning of the thread if you take a look on the bottom of page 1.


Houston, Texas
#915662 - 01/31/08 07:31 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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AJB Offline
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However, if a pianist began piano after the age of 12, or did not acquire perfect technique before then, that is no reason to despair! We learn better and faster as children. But we can still learn effectively as adults.

To make statements that most college professors have not got a clue seems a bit wild as it is unlikely that anyone will have checked out more than a few. It is a bit like saying that most apples have maggots in them ....on the basis that one has bitten into the occasional imperfect apple. Such generalizations often dilute otherwise interesting arguments.


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
#915663 - 02/08/08 05:56 AM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
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Poor Dave Offline
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Mac777 is a laid back Queenslander from Australia wink Relaxation techniques must be a natural thing for him laugh


I have a Kawai RX-5G... it sounds like a coffee maker.
#915664 - 02/19/08 06:59 PM Re: The Left Hand of the Pathetique  
Joined: Nov 2004
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computerpro3 Offline
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computerpro3  Offline
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Connecticut/Cincinnati
Quote
Originally posted by Mac777:
blah blah blah am so great I like fishing blah blah blah kiss my feet blah blah blah
Sorry, but your statement that you have to have technique in place by the time you are 12 is simply ridiculous. I started piano when I was 16 and am doing just fine at the Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music. I hope nobody takes you seriously, you might ruin a lifetime of enjoyment for someone.

And I'll trust my teacher's advice over yours anyday when it comes to technique. I don't think YOU won the Naumburg International Piano Competition.

I am certainly open and receptive to what you have to say, but can you at least avoid dissing people who are experienced, competent musicians (like Kriesler and "all the college professors" out there)?

On a side note, I just got assigned the Pathetique. Will be interesting to see how it goes with the infamous tremolo's. It doesn't look that bad but I haven't played through it yet.

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