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My 15 year old Daughter has been playing the piano for 4 years now. We purchased her a new Yamaha T-116 upright 4 years ago. She has done very well on it. She is playing pieces like Chopin Polonaise op.40/1, Beethoven Rondo in C op.51/1, Scott Joplin's Maple Leaf Rag, Bach's French suites and Liszt's Consolations. The big question is for anyone out there, am I hurting my Daughters piano skills by having her practice on an upright versus a Grand piano? Everyone says I should buy her a Grand because it has a quicker action and better sound. Can this piano last her 3 more years at home until she goes off to college? There she could use their pianos. I do not want to hinder her in any way so if I must buy one I will. I just need some sound advice from an expert in this field. Thank you ahead of time, Bela

Bela, it won't hurt your daughter with a lower end piano, it will only restrict certain techniques that she can demonstrate better on a better upright or grand piano. Generally shorter piano does not have the tone and touch compared to taller upright and grand. It's a matter of compromise. While the current piano can deliver what is played, taller model can do better. Some uprights have very good action that is faster enough for very high grade. Eg. Sauter, Steingraeber. Of course the choice of a grand will help on action, though may not necessarily sound better than a very good upright. It depends on brand and model. To answer your question, a taller upright will benefit your daughter more and the right grand will be great, a more luxurious choice.

Bela,

I would suggest that the answer to your question would depend upon what the goal is and if you have the pocketbook. If your daughter is demonstrating an exceptional talent for the piano and is maybe taking the path of music as a major field of study, and you could afford it, I would be shopping for a grand. The right instrument will go a long way toward stimulating your daughters abilities and increase her desire to put in the hours of work that will be necessary.
Something to consider. If, on the other hand, she is just playing for fun, save the money. She will be wanting her own car soon.

Put me with the grand group. You've got a decent upright -- and yes there are some remarkable uprights.

Still, the grand action is different -- and if you get her a decent grand piano, she'll have the opportunity to have a larger repertoire of playing skills -- just not possible on an upright.

It is largely a function of how the hammer interacts with the strings, combined with longer strings - and finally combined with a superior mechanism for producing sound.

All-in-all, a medium quality grand will generally be superior for someone to learn the piano playing craft to a first quality upright.

I guess if it were me, I'd make sure I had the funds for that medium quality grand -- and then search -- rather than buy a better quality upright and then a couple of years from now be buying a grand -- and yes, I know the buy now -- and trade up theory later -- but realistically, it's better to get the right piano today than the next wrong one.

Ken

When I was 15, my parents bought me a new piano to replace the one I was learning on. They did it because I myself began to feel the limitations of our old piano, I was becoming frustrated, and practicing became more of a chore than a joy.

Does your daughter have any strong feelings one way or the other?

Also, don't forget that your daughter may love practicing on her little Yamaha upright and may not like a medium-level grand as well...

As sort of a corollary to cht's comments, you should also check with your daughter's teacher to see if her progress is being hindered by your current piano. If not, then you have some time to consider a few other options. Chief among them is if your daughter is planning on going away to college to study, will you really need a grand in your house when she's away? Will she need a grand before she goes to college? Would a grand make a really wonderful college graduation present?

l'll add my name to the list pushing for a decent grand.
If the low-end upright is not capable of a wide range of expression, how can its player develop these skills?

If you do spring for a grand that is only to be used for 3 years, you may be interested in resale value.
If so, consider a quality well-known used grand such as Kawai, Yamaha, Baldwin, Steinway, maybe Mason and Hamlin.
Of course with a lesser-known brand you should also be paying less up front so maybe it's a wash.
Buying and selling through private party is more trouble, more time consuming and may be riskier than doing business with a dealer but it may save you money since there is one less party involved.

With my kids, I have felt that buying a quality USED piano is like renting. If purchased in proper condition and at a reasonable price, you can sell it (if you want) when they are out of the house for almost as much as you paid for it (actually, in the case of an upright we bought, we sold it for 60% more!)

So the real cost is the cost of having the money tied up, minus any further depreciation. In other words, if you shop well, it's CHEAP, and your daughter gets the benefit of a good grand.

But you do have to do the research and have the piano carefully checked out. (We were REALLY picky, and so it took us almost 6 months -- and it was worth it.)

My parents bought me a decent grand when I was about 13 or 14. Having the grand action made me a better pianist. Also having a nicer piano motivated me to practice more.

My parents were remodeling the living room, and my mom sacrificed the new bay window she'd always wanted because she recognized that a grand would help me out immensely. (She ended up getting her bay window when they remodeled the kitchen a year later. )

Now that I'm looking for a piano of my own, I quickly ruled out buying an upright because they just don't feel right to me. I don't know if I would have put as much into studying the piano if I hadn't had that decent grand.

Deborah

Some questions:

1. Is your daughter planning on becoming a performance major in college?

2. Pardon this one for being personal, but would purchasing another piano affect her college fund adversely? On another tack, should you decide to replace this piano, how much can you budget?

3. In the teacher's honest opinion, is the lack of a grand impeding her progress?

4. Are there any alternatives, such as practicing at your church, or local community college, that will allow her ample practice time on a grand for little, or no money?

I think with a few answers, the board can give you some ideas on which way to jump.

I had a friend in high school who was a fantastic pianist. He won every competition he entered (well, almost), played many recitals, and even performed Beethoven's 1st piano concerto with the community orchestra when he was in 10th grade. He was accepted into the music program of a major university and I believe he eventually earned his doctorate.

Guess what he had at home to practice on? An old Wurlitzer upright. I couldn't believe my eyes the first time I saw it, but sure enough that's what he practiced on.

Ryan

I don't think this one is particularly relevant. I studied computer science in college and have done a whole lot more singing than piano playing for the past 7 years or so, but having the grand really helped my musical development. I don't know if I'd be looking for a piano now and wanting to get back into playing if my parents hadn't bought the grand.

I feel that the piano helped to keep my musical interest and motivation high, and it allowed me to branch out into fields of musical study not directly related to the piano (such as lots of music theory, some really fun courses in college, and early music performance practice). If my parents based the piano decision on whether or not I was going to be a performance major in college, then things might have been very different.

Deborah

And here's why I think it has huge importance, depending on finances:

I have a son in college. My daughter is a high school senior this year, so college is looming closely on the horizon for her.

College costs money. A lot of money.

Now, most folks can go one of three ways: 1)Scholarships that cover the entire cost of college. These are not common, especially at the more expensive, or more elite, universities. 2)A combination of scholarships, savings, and student loans. I'd think the most common, but Daddy and Momma still get a large chunk eaten out of their backpockets. 3)Strictly college savings, and student loans.

Some folks may think differently, but massive amounts of debt, are not the way I'd like to start my adult life. I did not have them when I graduated, and I'm going to make sure my children don't have them either.

I see the question as dividing the prospect of acquiring a new (or a used) piano into either a "want to", or "have to" column. If the young lady is progressing, but has no aspirations of being a music major, by not acquiring a new piano, has any harm been done in the long view?

If she does plan on being a performance major, does not acquiring a new piano, harm her in the long view?

My contention would be that if she is seriously considering the performance option, or a music related career field, the expense may be warranted. If not, I would assess the situation carefully in light of my personal finances.

I respectfully disagree. At 15, did you know what you were going to study in college? I made the decision mid-way through my freshman year. I couldn't have made that decision in my early teens when we were making the piano decision.

Also, there's a lot more to college financing than what you said, especially if one is going to an elite institution. They give need-based financial aid, and if you spent the money on the piano, they'd actually give you more financial aid than if you had a ton of money set aside in a college fund. It's a pretty complex thing. My parents ended up having to pay a reasonable sum each year; I had to work during the summers and the school year to contribute a lot. I also had to take out some loans, but the educational value was worth the trade-off. I could have gone to a state school where it would have been free, but to me, the student loans were worth it. As was the piano, even though my degree does not say anything about music.

Deborah

I played a super old upright forever it seems. The good thing about that - was that my brain had to really focus my fingers on coaxing any type of tonality out of the keys. Playing dynamically on an upright is difficult and actually great practice for the 'real' thing. I adjusted to my grand in minutes when I got it.

Thank you all for some really good advice. Just to shed some more info on my daughter. She is planning to be a piano major in 3 years. I am kind of pushing her towards her Masters. She's still young, why not get all your studies over with while your still young. I agree with some of you about the motivation factor once the new Grand would come in the home. She would definately practice more. She practices 2 hours a day now. She has worked very hard on her repertoire in the last 4 years and I don't think she would be dumb and throw all that away. She is serious about her music. We have been blessed with a great teacher, she's motivating, strict, and sweet all at the same time. My other question is would about 20K be enough for a Grand piano? I do not want to spend more then that. I heard that Schimmels Grands are good pianos, are they comparable to Steinways. Or should I look for a good used Steinway on E-Bay here locally in my State. I would check it out with my tuner before purchasing it of course. Thanks ahead of time for your responses. You all need to be commended for being so helpful.

That is an excellent point.

Well, the implications of my post are that Jolly's consideration is irrelevant. You can have the use of a decent USED grand piano virtually for free (or close to it), if you choose wisely, and pay for its upkeep. So it would not have to affect college finances at all (other than in the cost of money tied up while it was in use.)

(and, given the prior point, you might actually stand to make money on the deal.)

Deborah wrote: Depends on how you do it. It may, or may not count.

As to need-based financial aid, tuition and board at Tulane right now is 36K/year, not counting books or hamburger money. I believe Rice is a tad more, and I would think the Southern schools are a bit less than elsewhere in the country, say Stanford, or Ivy League.

To each his own, when it comes to debt. I think it silly to spend major money on a piano, and then borrow money to finance an education, unless the piano will have a direct impact upon that education, as in scholarships won, school attended, etc.

As cited earlier in this thread, a grand is nice to further one's skills, but it will not replace God-given talent. I've often said that the best pianist I know has a Baldwin vertical. (And yes, he can outplay, by most yardsticks, the classically trained Russian who heads the nearest performance school).

However, in light of the original poster's reply, in which I think most of the questions were answered, much of this becomes moot.

I think we are now talking 20K budget, and I think we are now talking grand.

Shant has already pitched the proposition of a used piano, which is sound advice as long as one can be found. I would add some new pianos to the list, most notably Estonia, Petrof, and Kawai.

And what does your daughter think about this? She plays your upright, she's almost certainly played a few grands by now, and she should have a relevant opinion.