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txranger,

Right off I'm going to say, get the child a real acoustic piano. If you want your child to be a pianist, get a real piano. If you want your child to be a digitalist, get a digital. There is a world of difference between the two.

First, most digitals do not have a full set of keys. If they do, they are very expensive. It will be very frustrating for your child not to be able to play all the notes in a piece of music after advancing beyond of playing in a two octive range.

Second, the touch and responsiveness of a digital can never really be duplicated by a digital.

Third, though digitals try to sound like the real thing, they can never sound like a real piano.

Fourth, learning how to make notes produce a myriad of volumes, sounds, and pedaling to create a desired effect that ultimately leads to development of a pianist's style can not be accomplished on a digital.

If you are serious about wanting your child to learn to play the piano, why not go ahead and invest in a low-end upright, new or used that is in good working order. They are very close in price to what you would pay for a digital anyway, especially if you find one used. Should you want to sell the digital, later you may find no takers. Obsolete technology doesn't sell for much. Ever tried to sell a 3 year old computer? If you paid $2,000 for it, you would be lucky to sell it for$200.

If you want to teach your child to add, you don't give him a calculator, you teach him to add 2 plus 2. If you want him to learn music and play piano, get the acoustic, not the digital.

Digitals are nice, but only a toy compared to an acoustic piano.

Disclaimer: I admit to being an acoustic snob and make no apologies for it.

Sorry to agree with you--but you are so right, pique. My daughter takes piano lessons privately, but also takes French horn lessons in school in a group--which is fine. The group lessons are for fun--the private lessons are for real.

Also, We have a number of pianos, an acoustic piano, a Kertsweill (or something of the such,) digital piano and a little harpsichord. All fun, and we enjoy them all. But the kid takes lessons on the piano. She PLAYS the piano. And the rest are fun things--(and a HECK of a lot better than video games.)

For our family the actual training of the child in music is on the piano--all the rest just adds and enriches.

Is there any touch sensitivity to a digital piano?

I am looking at the piano as a base for musical interest, learning to read music, understand chords and keys (like the key of C). From there, my sons may choose trumpet, sax, drums, clarinet, or even choose voice. I just think piano is a great starting point for which all kids should get some exposure. Just as I have no expectation for my son to be a professional soccer player, or even win a scholarship, he is crazy about the sport and he participates. I have two boys and see this as a good start, at a reduced expense. If they want to play in a band, you have a keyboard player.

Obviously, if they get good and want to continue on, we would get an acoustic. We have two in the family that are currently collecting dust, but unfortunately, 1800 miles away.

The big sticking point is touch. I cannot tell, by hitting the keys for resistance, the difference between the Kawai digital and a $8-10K acoustic. The Roland is obviously different. However, I did not test to see if you could get different volumes that made sense with different strikes on the keys. I see that as pretty important.

There was an interesting story about the advantages of a digital piano in the NY Time posted on another forum this week....

From the New York Times ©, 01/02/03:

ROB REIS, a 49-year-old electrical engineer in Palo Alto, Calif., was in his mid-40's when he resolved to redress a big regret in his life: he had never learned to play the piano. He decided to start taking lessons. Trained to approach challenges methodically, he gauged that it would take roughly five years to become proficient at what he calls "cocktail party piano."

Being the electronics-happy fellow that he is, Mr. Reis settled on a digital piano, which he credits not only with speeding the vexingly slow process of learning the piano, but also with helping him get through a three-month period of stagnation that nearly caused him to quit.

For most adults, learning to play the piano is the musical equivalent of watching grass grow. Frustration over one's own lack of coordination and the struggle to play what an 8-year-old with a year's experience can knock off with ease makes piano study a wide-open market for electronic learning aids.

Not surprisingly, there are more to choose from than ever before. Digital pianos do a better job than ever at approximating the action and sound of acoustic pianos, providing new enticements for beginners and performance-level musicians alike. And for those still mastering the instrument, many instruction books now come with disks that can be inserted into a digital piano or a stand-alone box, letting the student hear a piece in any number of ways. There are also specialized CD players that can slow the music down to the novice's pace without changing the pitch.
---------------------
The rest of the story is at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/02/technology/circuits/02pian.html

Yes, this is the case on most digitals these days. It's actually called "velocity sensitivity". I'll explain why if you really want me to, but suffice it to say that it's what you're talking about when you say "touch sensitive". Virtually all digitals will have 128 levels of dynamic range (that is the MIDI specification) although some digitals will apply this technology better than others.

I actually prefer the Roland touch/tone to just about anything out there. You mentioned that the Kawai you played was more expensive than the Roland. You might want to compare apples to apples. I'm sure Roland has a similar offering to the Kawai.

Hi, 13 months ago our family bought a digital keyboard (Technics) as an inexpensive way to see if our daughters really wanted to learn to play the piano. Of course (naively) we thought we would "trade in" the keyboard on an acoustic piano if needed. Well, we have just bought a grand piano in addition to the keyboard. My kids love the keyboard, they change the instrument sounds all the time - especially the 8 year old, but they keep practicing. The piano won't be here for a few more weeks, but I will be interested to see where they choose to practice. I think they will head to the piano, but maybe not. Our keyboard is touch sensitive to a point, but if you push they key down, you will always get some sound no matter how you strike the key.

On a side note, our oldest daughter started trumpet last year, and it was pretty handy to be able to play her music, using the B flat trumpet on the keyboard so she could check her playing.

Not true. Should read "SOME digitals do not have...". It seems that the digitals that TX is looking at all have 88 keys.

Obviously a misprint, although I know what you mean. I'd say this is true unless you're dealing with a high quality digital vs. a lousy acoustic.

True (although they are sounding better and better). Again, this is assuming we're comparing a good acoustic to a good digital. But this is unfair as a good acoustic is going to be significantly more than a digital.

According to whom? I disagree with the notion that a child cannot start on a digital and graduate to an acoustic at a later date.

A 3-year old $2000 digital would sell for considerably more than $200. Although the spirit of what you're saying is true, I could say the same for a $2000 acoustic. Case in point: look at all of the postings on this forum every week from people trying to sell their "antique pianos".

I really don't have a bias toward digitals. I own several, but I also own a very expensive acoustic. In fact, I would never have spent the amount of money on a digital that I did on my acoustic piano. I consider myself a pianist first and formost. And one can really only pursue that goal on an acoustic. But when you're talking about young children who have two levels of dynamics when they play (loud and louder), a digital with weighted keys can keep them engaged and learning while not putting the parents out too much financially.
Digitals are not just imitation acoustic pianos. They are legitimate instruments unto themselves. My kids are learning on both acoustic and digitals.

Thanks Steve (and everyone) for the info.

Steve,

If you have not tried the Kawai, their lower end model, the CN270 is actually a little less in cost than the Roland HP1. The feels are the same on the keyboards at both ends of the Kawai scale. It seems that as you go up in price with the Rolands, HP to KR-3,5,7, that the difference is sound quality, not feel. The low end Kawai at $1500 has a better feel than the $2600 Roland. Again the difference between the Kawais seems to be features and sound, not feel.

I believe 128 pitches is enough to learn on and enjoy. Add the advantages of headphones, and never having to tune it, and I believe we have an acceptable purchase. Besides, the $3500 used acoustics I've seen are horrible.

I cannot find any decent quality used digital pianos. While there is the option of the stand alone MIDI player, built in seems better. Can you offer any older model numbers to look for with a floppy disc?

Pique, I guess neither of us is a careful reader...and I don't even profess to be a writer!!!

I actually said that I disagreed with the statement, "if your interest is in your child developing a love of the instrument, an acoustic piano is a must."

And I still continue to disagree with that statement and what I believe to be the premise of your original post. Practicing on a digital piano does not hinder one's ability to learn to play the acoustic piano. Particularly at a young age and particularly on a good digital. I think TX mentioned the Kawai CP110. Don't you know many digital and upright owners who have "developed" a love for the sound and feel of a 9' concert grand without owning one? I do.

I also made very clear what I meant by versatility where digital pianos excel and went as far to list examples. Your reference to playing a Chopin piece while perhaps accurate, is very narrow in scope when it comes to a discussion about versatility. I don't think you've made a good point there.

Of course that wasn't what I was implying. I took private lessons for over 20 years and as far as the collegiate level. I'm no prodigy to be sure; had I been I wouldn't have needed all those lessons!!! Studying the piano is enough of a solitary activity what with all the necessary hours in the practice room. And I agree that bad habits are possible in group lessons and maybe even less likely to be caught by the teacher than in private lessons. I was however, making reference to the idea that playing the piano should be fun...especially when kids today have so many other alternatives to music pulling at them. Group lessons are very good at facilitating this, often with a very qualified teacher at a less expensive rate than private lessons.



I'm sure you don't mean to imply that people who buy digitals and send their kids to group lessons care less about their kids than you do. Even so, you are entitled to your opinion.

Maybe you mean that private lessons are necessarily better than group lessons. For some, but perhaps not others.

But consider this, the importance of music to the parents isn't necessarily a reflection of the importance to the child who is actually taking the lessons.

Steve Y has very well summed up the digital/acoustic debate so I'll leave it at that.

I suppose it all comes down to how interested the student is at working to learn the piano. We also see many people in bands that play a piano-like instrument. They are usually called keyboardists. I'm sure they are also able pianists as well. I believe that a digital piano with the right touch sensitivity and weighting of the keys and pedal can help someone learn how to play.

What I'm not sure about tx is the statement that the floppy disk is essential to learning the piano. Is that something that the teacher requires? I suppose it helps to be able to play back your performance to critique it but it helps more to continue to practice the song for a longer period.

The statement that digital pianos become obsolete is absolutely true in my mind. At this technological point in time all of them use speakers to reproduce the piano sound. While they come close, they don't reproduce the sounds exactly like a piano. I'm sure in the future there will be better technologies that will improve sound reproduction even more. But right now we're stuck with speakers.

One point slightly off topic, was that Tx mentioned that you could use headphones to help protect others from listening to your practice. I for one, hate playing with headphones. For one thing the cord bothers me because it gets in the way. The other is something I can't quantify. I think I like the quality of big soundwaves moving through the air. The bass in headphones, while good just isn't the same to me as a nice subwoofer. Forget about the comparison to an acoustic piano. It can be an almost euphoric experience hearing how each note resonates through the air and around you. Sitting back and listening to someone play can be a great experience as well.

Anyway, before I go all over the place off topic, good luck with your search.

Briguy,

Yes, the FDD is a requirement for the course they are taking or you can get a Midi Player with an FDD.

As for the headphones, I love infrared technology - no cords. But I understand your other concern. Of course I will want to hear my kids at intervals, I'm not an insensitive guy. I just remember how painful endless repitions of simple plinks and toots must have been on my parents and neighbors (I used to like to practice outside, at my mother's encouragement, of course).

I was truly amazed by the touch on the Kawais. The Rolands were decidedly keyboards. However, the low end Kawai with the FDD is $3500, $1000 more than the Roland with equivalent features. Are there any others with realistic feel?

I'm still befuddled by the Kawai touch being better than the Roland -- certainly not my experience. But if it works for you, then great.

For the Kawai dealers out there, does Kawai build the keyboard action for their digitals? Or do they get them from Yamaha or Fatar or ???

Steve,

Even the dealer said, "Well, Kawai also makes real pianos, and Roland only does digital". She also gave me some technical reason, something to the effect that the sound is generated under the keyboard, whereas the Kawai only has the key mechanism under the keyboard, and the sound generation board elsewhere (or something). Sounded like BS to me, but the feel was good. Maybe they have improved the new Kawai digital feel? Not that the Roland was bad (better than I expected), just not quite as good.

Should I also check out Yamaha and Fatar?

txranger,

I'll try to be brief (it would be a first)...

My 8 year old son needed to begin piano lessons because of his interest in a performing choir. We didn't have a clue about pianos, keyboards, etc. It was waaaaayyy too easy to get swayed by whatever the salesperson had to say at the local music store.

We ended up getting a (free) keyboard from friends (as they upgraded to a 'real' piano). My son used that for a year to make "sounds" - in conjuction with lessons from the local music store. I figured we needed to see if this would be a lasting interest, and it would give us time to think about all the good points mentioned in the above posts.

After a year and a half, my wife said, "time to buy a piano". Well, we were still faced with all the same issues you are facing now. Still got all the same sales pitches from the dealers. I still had no clue what to buy.

Through this forum's sales area, we were able to locate a fantastic, used, upright piano. I did as much research online as I could. I checked out the owners (wonderful folks - and members of pianoworld), the brand, the technicians who worked on the piano...and after satisfying my skepticisms - purchased the piano.

Don't regret it for a minute. I think getting an acoustic piano is a great idea. I think the keyboard approach has it's merits, but I'm happy to have the acoustic. If it turns into "just" furniture, we'll probably sell it (better resale value than a keyboard!)

Also a thought (so much for brevity). I would never encourage headphones for practice - you need to hear whether you son is "getting it" (or even doing it.) Also, kids LOVE to have YOU hear their music. It's one of the best motivations, "Can I have a concert?" Our other child and my wife have also started piano lessons....

Maybe you could rent or borrow something for a period of time. You might be in a position to make a better decision, and will probably find a better deal, piano, dealer, etc., along the way. We did (thanks to this forum!)

thanx,

John

Hey TX,

I think you should know that all my posts contain my dealer information at the bottom. I do this for full disclosure so that everyone knows up front that I am a salesman from a dealership. Anyone who frequents this forum will tell you that my opinions on digital vs. acoustic are very consistent. There was certainly no intention on my part to offend you in any way, and I take no offense at your post, Being a very public forum I do have to respectfully disagree with your statements about our store.

Your right, I do work in a posh store. It took Mr. Forshey 25 years of hard work to get to this point. You should see the shack of a place that we started in! (Within throwing distance of Gilley's) By the way, our big building is actually more cost effective than having a seperate place for rebuilding and a showroom. And I have to disagree with you about the profit margins...Like most dealers we have pianos in every price catagory.

That being said, I still think that you are better off with a real piano than a digital keyboard. Most of the regulars on this forum will agree with me. If you still insist on a digital, the Kawai is an excellent choice. The action is quite nice. The higher quality models have real wooden keys and the mechanism feels the closest to a real piano that I have encountered. In our area H & H Music would be the dealer for Kawai electronics. Which location did you visit?

If you need a list of piano teachers in your area, I would be very happy to fax a list of private teachers by zip code. Email me directly with your info. Or stop by for a great cup of java!

But hey... Don't hate me because I'm beautiful!!! :p

Hi Txranger,

Just want to address the private lesson v. group lesson issue.

I've been involved in education my whole life, and have been on both sides of one-to-one lessons many times. And have given many small group lessons in various subjects. BY FAR the better learning environment is 1-1, IMHO, if cost permits.

1-1 permits the learner to ask questions pertinent to his development, and avoid questions others ask which have no bearing on this development. Moreover, private lessons not infrequently allow a genuine personal relationship to develop between the two persons, irrespective of age. [I have tutored a 12-year-old girl for the past year. As it happened, we found we liked each other and each of us considers the other a friend.]

As a young adult who had played piano only a few months, I found a private teacher who, for the first month or two, asked me to visit her twice a week for half an hour... she wanted to be sure my fingers developed the habit of being curved when prepared to play the keys, and returned to the curved position afterwards. Thanks to her great caring for my musical future, I developed this habit, which has allowed me to play much better than would otherwise have been possible. This is one example for you to consider, of the vast difference a good teacher can make in the early stages of learning piano.

Small group lessons in any subject CAN be useful, if there is no alternative and the teacher is quite good. But they cannot compare with 1-1, IMO.

Dave,

Good response. I will probably take you up on the offer and give you a chance to prove to me your theory on acoustics. Of course, there is no comparison to a nice grand piano. Then again, there is no comparison between a Mercedes S500 and a Yugo. Just as I don't want my kid to learn to drive in a Yugo, I'm not about to buy them a Mercedes, much less an S500. There is the argument for always buying German cars, too. I happen to think there is some merit there, for those who want to pay for it. Then again, six months down the road, chances are slimmer the car will collect dust.

My parents have two nice dust collectors, 1800 miles away.

I have to admit, looks alone would have kept me out of the store, just figuring I couldn't afford you, or that I could get better prices for the same thing elsewhere. There are many businesses locally that take advantage of the overabundance of pretentious folks, willing to pay anything for their darling child to get a leg up on the competition. If you aren't one, and the facade caused me to generalize, I apologize.

We are trying to develop an interest in music, not a concert pianist. If he can someday jam at a piano with his friends in a band, great. If he graduates to an acoustic or plays trumpet, either is fine. If he has no interest, that's fine too. I have bought into the concept of graded hammer weight keys, but have had a couple very talented folks, with nothing to sell, say they went from the old digitals to acoustic, but have friends who learned on acoustics, that can't function on a keyboard.

So, I will probably save some money and split the difference. The feel of the Yamaha P120 is okay, the Roland HP is nicer, and the Kawai, very realistic.

After six months, maybe sooner, I can see graduating to individual lessons. I will certainly take you up on the offer of a piano teacher.

Either way, thanks for the input.

My experience is that your kids will choose the acoustic piano over the electronic keyboard at least ninety percent of the time.

Three years ago, we bought our two daughters a keyboard because they fought over who got to play our circa-1960 Everett spinet. The spinet remained their first choice.

My theory: You don't have to flip an on/off switch to play the piano. You don't have to adjust the volume. And you don't have to re-adjust the myriad other settings, including instrument voice, that the previous player fooled around with. Lastly, the piano always sounds better.

Now that we've had our Estonia 190 for two weeks, the girls accuse each other of hogging it. It is fairly common to hear both pianos being played at the same time (on different floors of the house). Meanwhile, our keyboard collects dust.

Your family will love the piano!

Mike

Hey TX,

You are welcome to drop by anytime. Jes' lemme know soz I ken git the coffee brewin'. Incidently, we do not offer lessons at the store but do have a very long list of private teachers in the Houston area filed by zip code. It's available anytime, no strings attached. The Houston area teachers have been very good to us over the years. It is our way of supporting them and saying thankee!! Without them I couldn't have this job that I love so much.

As far as proving my theories on acoustics, well...Lets just say that I've been involved in sound development on some of the high-end digital sampling keyboard instruments and synthesizers, even the old analog stuff, since the early 80's. I found it to be a heck of a lot of fun! Still mess around with it a bit as I find it fascinating, and because I want to keep up. Some of the acoustic modeling stuff is amazing. However, there are many shortcomings in all these technologies. If you'd like I can get into that deeper. Keep in mind that I am also a rather prudish individual who doesn't think that CD's are good enough because of the limits of PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) . By the way, most digital keyboards, including the high end stuff use PCM. Pretty good, but...Now, just wait till you hear a Super Audio Compact Disc (SACD) on a SACD player which uses a Direct Stream Digital process!! Now thats recorded music at a whole new level.

I am very happy and applaud you for choosing to expose your child to music lessons. Like I said in my previous post, group lessons are not bad as a whole, that depends on very many things. Not all private teachers are equal either. I wish your family the best.

As far as touch-and-feel of the Kawais is concered: I have ESX (sells for about $1200), this a keyboard, with small speakers (it is recommended to buy a real amp to it though). It has hammer action keys - feels pretty good to me.
There is a higher-end version the Kawai MP9500, that even har real wood keys and certainly hammers.

It is true that it's is hard to simulate the vibrations of the soundboard of a real piano of the vibrations in your fingertips. In my view though, a good digital can be better than a low end acustic.
Just my 2c worth.
Peter