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And I'm jealous that you have taken the tour of the AF factory! Plus you have an accent in your last name, and know how to use it.


Which the consumer should realize is effectively ZERO. Short of reimbursement for agreed expenses (tunings, etc) and standing behind a warranty claim.

Irving uses a good expression here, "arbitrage". I gladly paid for the tech work on my lightly used piano rather than have a premium dealer do it and charge me a premium buried in the inflated sale price.

Alex has always been a gentleman here and I do not wish to extend the acrimony, but one must realize how incredulous it does sound to find out that a person shopped locally and then ended up buying the same piano across the country for the same price. I suppose there are some wacky consumers out there and plenty of shifty dealers, but it is difficult to conceive of a sales pitch that would lure a buyer into such a situation.

My apparent contrarian view on many of these points is rooted in a belief that it is possible to get a good deal from a high volume seller who is respectable and will stand by the product if it requires warranty work.

I have played a large number of new pianos that were prepped minimally (as in not at all, really), just tuned and sticky keys unstuck - that were wonderfully musical. Dozens of them. Now I am not a concert pianist, or high level technician or extremely qualified in any way that people should takle my opinion as gospel. But I do have a sensativity towards the piano, and I often find my reactions are very similar to far more sophisticated players' reactions to the same piano. And I tell you in all honesty that the average to advanced player of classical music would probably find the pianos which were minimally prepped to be quite acceptable. Coupled with a reduced price and the knowledge that there will be adjustments necessary at the expense of the buyer, these pianos are a bargain.

I am not saying that there is no value added by the dealer in a highly prepped piano, I just think that most struggling musicians desperate to have a quality instrument would gain more in a reduced purchase price, and waiting to later have the advanced prep as they can afford it - and the piano needs it.

Further, this value added may in fact be invisible to all but the most sophisticated of pianists, and therefore all this prep talk is a bit of a red herring. Throw in a free bench - now that's something we can see. 20 hours of prep before I got there? Well, how do I know it was worth it?

I hear the frustration of some dealers here about the competition about prep, where the competitor is claiming the piano is well prepped when maybe it isn't. I don't know how to deal with dishonest dealers but it seems to me that a premium dealer is either going to survive because of that business model and the reputation they have related to it, or fail because of it. I can't open a CD music store and only sell my favorite Wagner recordings and Favorite Jussi Bjoerling pre-war recordings exclusively, and then complain when my competition is doing better business because they also sell Brittany Spears. Or even complain that they are selling the Wagner stuff I have cheaper (because they sell volume, and can sell cheaper).

Walking into a place like Faust is mesmerizing. And for all my infamous price talk, I tell you all straight up that if I had decided to buy an Estonia, I would not have for a second thought about going anywhere else. The value added was very apparent the second you walk in the door.

Maybe I'd feel the same if I walked into Alex or Keith's or Jonathan's shop if I lived in the area, my point is that the high end quality business model requires, axiomatically, that you give up on other types of sales. You can not possibly expect everyone to appreciate high end prep and with the resources of the internet, more and more people buying higher end pianos may feel as I do. Sell me the piano, I'll pay my tech to upkeep it.

And one from a non-technical consumer...

Many decades ago, I chose medicine as a career due to, as much as any other reason, having had a family member require much medical attention, during which time I and my other relatives felt totally in the dark about what was happening, without any control of the situation. After reading this thread, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm not going to have to become a piano technician in my retirement.

And then I think, hey, let's get a grip on reality. I can tell when I'm enjoying the instrument I'm playing on, when it responds, when it sounds good. If it's not there when I try it out, I shouldn't buy it. If the dealer has a reputation for poor support, same thing. I guess the consumer most at risk is the non-musician parent buying an instrument for children to learn on; bring a person skilled in teaching kids along with to evaluate the piano if you're in that situation.

Buying an unplayed instrument (as over the internet) is buying a pig in a poke.

Christopher,

I think you make a lot of valid points. I do take slight exception to your implication that piano dealers that do premium work charge inflated prices for it. I think this thread has expressed that there are many different ways for a piano dealer to offer value to their clients and different clients have different needs.
Irving, Alex, Jonathan, and I don't generally hear from the many satisfied customers who bought pianos that were prepped to a different standard than the appraoch we might take. We hear from the very dissatisfied customers who were sold a sub standard performing piano without a thorough explanation, and don't know where to turn. You have a clever and sophisticated approach that is well beyond most piano shoppers, and obviously works well for you. I just want to remind you, that there are many dealers doing minimal prep and service who are charging by far, the highest prices. These are actually the most successful, from a bottom line point of view, piano dealers out there. I can assure you that clients that are attracted to, and appreciate, the approach that Alex, Jonathan, Irving, and I have described in this, and other threads, are receiving tremendous value from us, in every sense. The ones that don't like our approach buy elsewhere.
I am glad you are here to offer your perspective.

From the guy who owns the Chinese piano:

Price, gentleman. Price, and value.

Some of you are fiddling, while Rome burns.

There will always be a market for the best. A great piano, prepped to the nines, performing like the Ferrari it is. Yet, how many cars are on the road, and how many of those are Ferraris?

I'm the consumer, and I'd daresay I'm pretty average. I want a piano that looks good. I want a piano that plays well enough for the causal player. But mostly, I want a piano I can afford, a piano that will still let me keep a roof over my head, and food on the table.

Now, some in this thread are saying that we of the unwashed masses don't know the difference between good, and great. Perhaps beginners don't, but I believe most any pianist that can stagger through a Broadway showtune, can tell the difference between a lower tier, and an upper tier piano. We just don't have the money to pay for the difference.

So we look for the best we can afford, and we shop hard, within a given budget. At the prep levels some of you are talking about, a lot of prospective buyers couldn't afford an accordion.

So what to do? You do what dealers should - you carry a breadth of lines, at different pricepoints. And you try to make a living, which by definition, means making a profit.

I don't think you can consistently make a living putting 20 hours into every Chinese, Korean, Japanese, or Eastern European piano sitting on your showroom floor. The one exception would be the technician/owner, and then it seems that if you can average $40/hour working outside of the store, you may still be going in the hole.


One other point...someone mentioned earlier the folly of buying a crated piano, sight unseen. For some makes, I agree.

But for others, send me the piano, and save me five large (or maybe more), and I'll handle my own prep, thank you.

After all, how do the dealers get them? I understand that some pianos may be better than others, but I don't subscribe to the Goldilocks Theory. At least not at my level.

Ok, folks, end of rant.

Inflated meaning that the cost of doing business is higher, thus the price of the product is higher. You've got to make the cost up somewhere, no? IF you are saying that with all this meticulous prep you are still selling your pianos cheaper than other guys, then I suppose there is a marketing issue here.

Well, I sort of came up with it after I bought my piano. I learned a lot here afterwards, and a lot from revisiting piano dealers after I bought.

OK, but given the total lack of documented selling price data, I'll have to take your word on it.

CJQ,

This customer never came into our store before he purchased. We were never given a chance to compete. The out of state dealer gave his price over the phone without any other consideration.

Had he come into our store this situation would have never occured.

We think that price should be important once the "right" instrument is selected. When people call soliciting a price only response from us we tend to advise a trip into our store.

Like many dealers here we are competitive but we believe that finding the right instrument should always come first.

The other dealer didn't prepare his customer for what to expect. He didn't make sure that the tech support was going to be there. This is what I have a problem with.

Christopher,

There are many expenses that go into running a business other than service. If business one spends $10 on service and $5 on sales and marketing, and business 2 spends $1 on service and $20 on sales and marketing, and they both offer the same product, business one has a lower cost of doing business. And perhaps business two's sales and marketing helps them to sell the product for a higher price than business one, in spite of the fact that business one spends 10x as much on service.

Alex, I think all would agree including the most price-conscious of shoppers, that this customer was a fool. Always give the local guy the first shot and a chance to counter-offer if you find one cheaper elsewhere. Then weigh the benefits of supporting the local economy, establishing a relationship (visitation rights to the store!), etc before going out of town.

" if the buisness spends $ 10 on service and $ 5 on sales...."

Don't forget there are places where they spend $ 10 on service but 0 on sales!

Which,alone, very quickly can lead to some serious value in the marketplace.

Giving a customer a superior product within a price competitive environment in regards to all other players out there, is the very name of the game.

Isn't this the very essence of success of such lines as Estonia and several German makes competing against the more established titans?

YES.... and now I have given here once and for all my entire business secret away!!

Better piano for same or even less money!

[One more tip: don't spend too much on rent.... ]

OH SCHUCKS....another freebe... :rolleyes:

norbert

larry wrote:
"Balance your technical prowess with your business sense, and do that shopper a favor - get their business, *then* help them develop both their own knowledge and appreciation for the finer points of concert quality technical work, and develop their piano to its full potential in the process."

i have to agree with this, and also with what kenny and cjq and jolly have written.

there is a certain kind of customer who perhaps doesn't trust his/her own taste enough to shop the way cjq describes and how i shopped, and they will want to go to a premium dealer who does all this prep work, and happily pay whatever premium that may cost them because they have the security of 1. knowing they will be taken care of and 2. that their piano's potential has been optimized.

to patronize that kind of dealer, you have to have the money to do so. but if you have champagne tastes and a beer budget, those dealers are out of your league. you need to find someone who can offer value, quality, and service, though maybe not perhaps to the same pinnacle standard. there *are* such dealers, and they are honest and ethical dealers, you just have to look around. i met plenty of them on my piano hunt.

i think kenny's solution is a brilliant one and works well for anyone who trusts his own taste enough to go that route.

serving the customer first is what brings you business, not serving the idea of the ideal piano. the customers has to be more important that the piano, or your standards for the piano, if that makes any sense. i think the wagner CD store analogy is an apt one.

Well put, Pique!!

[Gee, I wish I could write like that.... ]

norbert

You know, I run across this program on cable about billionare toys, and this one is about an outfit called Kalamazoo Grills, I think it is, that manufactures completely custom, stunningly elaborate outdoor barbeque units that can cost 30, 40, 50 thousand dollars, and even comes with a chef, at least for a while. How does that relate to this thread? Well, I'm thinking there are worse ways to spend your bucks than in the manner that's being heatedly debated under this topic. As I believe either Shakespeare or Emeril put it, "is it nobler to expend your capital in the service of high art, or in the pursuit of grilled lamb chops"? I suspect most here would favor the former. Though who are we to deny a man his tenderloin?

Honestly, if your motivation for insisting on premium prep to a piano is somehow linked with a preference for $500 wine bottles and $40,000 barbeques, then perhaps you ARE just one of those insecure, rich "boutique" people. On the other hand, if your cost-is-no-object attitude is motivated by purely artistic impluses, then I'd have to grant a measure of respect, while still wondering how you've managed to hold onto enough cash over time to indulge such finer urges.

I think Larry and others promote a sensible, real world approach that is hard to argue against. But I also think that if you're spending 50K or more for a grand why NOT polish it to its pique, I mean peak? I probably would, too, if I had the jack--I'd just want to be d**m sure the tech(s) doing the work actually knew how to improve rather than merely change the original "canvass"! Which is why, I'd certainly have to seek out one of the truly primo dealers like the guys posting here. But to argue that this level of hyper-service (basic? sorry, no way!) is universally necessary is really giving a distorted impression to the average Joe-Jill confused-as-heck customer, and does little service to an already limping business sector.

But again, there are worse ways to empty a wallet...

Jeffrey, since no one has addressed your answer, perhaps I can share my experience as a pianist and consumer. As a teenager, I considered myself a fairly advanced pianist, having attained ABRSM Grade 8 (typical repetoire: Bach WTC, Beethoven Sonatas etc.). I had learned on an upright and had a Yamaha P22, followed by U3X, both uprights, at home.

After a hiatus of almost 20 years from lessons, during which time I played relatively non-demanding pieces for my church and choir, I decided to treat myself to a grand. I knew that my technique was rusty, but I still had a good ear and after shopping around a bit, the sound that fitted my modest budget was a Schimmel. I was estatic with my Schimmel when it was first delievered, and decided to resume piano lessons, but with a new teacher. After less than 6 months with this teacher, I was not only back to my previous standard of playing, but had even surpassed that.

Unfortunately, this was when my frustrations with my Schimmel began. The piano just could not reproduce the fine nuances that I could now control with my fingers. In addition, the action was also not as responsive as I wished. This was in comparison to the sound and action of my teacher's Grotrian. The dealer sent their technicians (two of them) three or four times to regulate my piano (but nowhere close to the 20 hours of basic prep mentioned by Keith) and my piano still does not perform the way I want it to. Two years later, I have given up trying. I still do not know whether it is the limitation of the piano (Schimmel is only Tier 2) or the limitation of the technicians or both. Norbert, who has some experience with technicians in my part of the world, had suggested that good technicians are few and far between here. In fact, a technician from Australia flies in semi-annually to privately service only Steinways for many owners, and the Sauter dealer brings in a Sauter technician from Germany to do the same.

As a kid/teenager, I went through 5 different teachers (and a couple of these teachers even produced international concert pianists!), but none of them had shown me ways of varying my "touch" to produce differences in tonal colour and dynamics, which I only learned from my current teacher. Had I not studied with her, I have no doubt that I would be very happy with my Schimmel, because, for all my playing experience, all I could really tell was that the sound was pleasing and the action is even.

What I am trying to suggest, in a roundabout way, is that unless one's technique is good enough to create a wide range of dynamics, and more importantly, tonal colour, by using different "touches", it would be difficult to tell on one's own whether a piano has been prepped to its full potential. One can compare the sound of different pianos and tell which is most pleasing, but it would be near impossible for the action, beyond basic things such as evenness. For such pianists, a piano that is prepped to an acceptable level would more than suffice, since they would lack the necessary technique to take advantage of the piano's complete capabiltites. Of course, with an improvement in skill and technique, pianists could become more discerning and demanding sometime later.

Btw, Keith, KB or Manitou, should you ever find yourself in Singapore, contact me. I would gladly pay for your 20+ hours of TLC on my piano!

Roxanne,

Good post. I started trying to answer Jeffrey's question a couple of times, but I just couldn't find the words.

I would add that some less advanced players are very sensitive to how precisely a piano responds and some advanced players don't give a flying fig as to the condition of their piano ( as long as it is basically has 88 working keys)

What I am trying to suggest, in a roundabout way, is that unless one's technique is good enough to create a wide range of dynamics, and more importantly, tonal colour, by using different "touches", it would be difficult to tell on one's own whether a piano has been prepped to its full potential.

roxanne, in my experience, a piano that is capable of responding to nuanced touch, teaches the pianist about the existence of nuanced touch and how to use it. i'm an intermediate player, and i bought a grotrian in part because of this piano's ability to teach me about touch.

when i go to my lessons and play my teacher's old yamaha c-3, i can bring what the grotrian taught me to her piano. my teacher has been working with me since well before i owned a piano, when i was practicing at the local music school, and she watched the transformation in my touch and told me it was from playing the grotrian.

To Norbert (and his fans), there was no hostility in my post, only a sincere affirmation of my incomprehension of his posts; fact.
Maybe, what was missing was the little smiley face, to help add intonation to my thoughts...

Larry,

You do speak much of ****ing contests, of which I have never (fact) participated in. You rant long and LOUD to make your points clear, but I will not bow to your age, experience of superior ego either. We don't agree on top notch prep, so be it. Don't begin to attack my person though to make your point.
I will let this run its course, and those yelling the loudest will appear to have made a better point. Fine. When someone with a great piano, who understands and wants great prep comes askin', at least some of us will have the education to be able to respond to those needs.

Thank you Manitou!

Of course as a family man with three young kids, I didn't want to be confused with the drug culture out there....

P.S. For any [occasional!] German-thinking English-writing confusion I caused

- my sincere and profound apologies to all!

norbert

Kein Angst

Roxane - What I had inferred from the lack of response to my post was that a true beginner or weak amateur player would not notice much difference (and that people didn't want to hurt my feelings by saying so). But if it really takes an ABRSM Grade 8 playing ability, plus a great teacher, to notice the differences, I wonder what segment of the piano-buying and playing population really reaches that level. Especially, who reaches that level of playing, and has the bucks to buy a mid-five figure or higher piano.

Pique also makes a good point - it might make sense to buy a piano with abilities beyond what one can use, because a better piano leads you in good directions.

Keith - You more or less seemed to agree with Rox. But I would suspect that only a small percentage of the buyers of big-dollar pianos (your clients) are also extremely accomplished players (there being an inverse relationship in this society between an artistic career and monetary success). Is this correct? (I have a relative who owns a Bosendorfer 280, but doesn't play. He put in a player mechanism, and hires people to play at his house when he has parties. The money was trivial to him. He does enjoy the piano he bought a lot and is very happy with his purchase.)

Different dealers on this thread have described different approaches to prep, customer service and cost. But if only 2% of piano players can appreciate regulation to the level of tonal coloring (and not just "being in tune"), then is the level of prep described really "basic"?

Thanks in advance for replies.