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People quote prices here that they paid or saw shopping, I know prices I saw while I was shopping. I have seen huge differences. I also know that many many people shop locally then come to the NY area and make a deal. They do this for a reason: big price difference or selection they can not find locally.

I present my opinion as my opinion - it's a as useful or worthless as anyone wants to make it. I don;t sell pianos or make money in any way with them, I'm just a consumer with an opinion.

If that's the case then the client was a fool. What could have motivated someone to buy a piano long distance at the same price a local dealer offered it?.

Then there are lots of fools CJQ, because it happens frequently.

Remember, a dealer doesn't have to actually give a better deal to snag a sale, they just have to get the customer to think that they're getting a better deal.

Those of us dealers who communicate with each other regularly know there are customers who against their better judgement buy what they think is a better deal, eventhough it ends up not to be in the longrun.

I'm just speaking in general of course.

Larry, that's one of the best posts you ever made.

You've appeared to say 2 conflicting things: 1; Bechstein and other top pianos don't need hours of prep and 2; it makes more sense to prep a top piano than spend 4+ hours on a cheap piano ??

I haven't said anything that is conflicting, you have misunderstood what I said.

No, directly from the factory, Bechstein, nor any other premium piano of note does not require 20+ hours worth of prep time right out of the box. I know there's some remarks that have been made about how the premium makers "expect" this to be done to their pianos, but as you'll see in a moment, that is being misrepresented. Your second part is so off the mark I don't really know where to begin to explain it to you. It doesn't even resemble what I said. Let me try again.

I didn't say "it makes more sense to prep a top piano than spend 4+ hours on a cheap piano", I said that top pianos need it the least and cheap pianos need it the most, but the cost of doing it is too much for a cheap piano, and less an issue on the top one. Add 500$ to the price of a 5995 baby grand "big sale this weekend", and see what happens to your sales. Add 500$ to a 50K piano, and it doesn't make that much difference, particularly when you factor in the fact that the buyer for the 50K piano is able to appreciate the improvement, and willing to pay for it.

As to premium makers expecting the dealer to do high level technical work, this too is getting twisted up a bit in this thread. Yes, they do. Most of them *insist* that a dealer be able to do this level of work before they'll even give you the line. The problem is, it is being presented here as if these manufacturers are expecting you to do this to their pianos right out of the box. This is simply not the case. Yes, their pianos are going to need technical work, and yes, they expect their dealers to be competent and capable of offering a high level of it. But they expect this work to be done *when the piano needs it*, not as an excersize in marketing yourself as being more capable than they are of getting their pianos right. A premium piano will *need* this level of work after the piano has had some breakin time on it, and not a day sooner. The manufacturers aren't telling you this is the kind of work they expect their dealers to do because they think they are shipping you pianos that need it, they are telling you they expect you to be able to do this level of work when it is *time* to do is. Voicing, yes, to meet the purchaser's tastes. Keeping it in tune, taking care of small adjustments as needed, yes. But to take a brand new premium range piano and convince myself that I need to redo their work straight out of the crate? I wouldn't be so presumptuous. Your job is not to redo their work, it is to keep the piano up to their level of work. So yes, they "expect you to do all this regulation work to their pianos".

On a mass produced low to midrange piano, sure - they need tons of work. But now you're back to the cost factor, and the fact that if you expect to sell many of them at all, you're going to have to stay price competitive. Prepping Nordiskas or Young Changs to the tune of 20+ hours each, and you aren't selling many pianos, or making any money on the ones you *do* sell. One tech can prepare 2 pianos a week. You simply aren't going to find enough people who will pay you 6995 for a piano they can get for 5995 everywhere else, just because you've "outprepped" the competition.

So my point Manitou, is that the numbers just won't add up for the low end, the customers at that end of the market can't tell the difference, and if you lose the sale to a dealer who can't or won't ever offer this level of service to the customer, they lost too. The most important part of giving the customer excellent service - is to have a customer to start with. Balance your technical prowess with your business sense, and do that shopper a favor - get their business, *then* help them develop both their own knowledge and appreciation for the finer points of concert quality technical work, and develop their piano to its full potential in the process.

All in all a great discussion, on all sides. One question: aside from a dealer's self report, how does one tell what level of prep a piano at a new dealer (let's say one is shopping for a new piano) is at? If one asks the dealer, I am sure they will say their prep is exemplary. What should an amateur player look for as an independent check on what the dealer is telling them?

Jeffrey,

we do our best to keep records of what we have done, when it was done, and who did it for every piano. We are not perfect at this,but we do our best. It gives us great information for future reference, and on occasion, if a customer asks just what you are asking, we show them. I am sure others keep good records also, some more detailed than us. Others who do good work may not keep good records, and I suspect you want to know how to tell if you think the dealer might invent records. You need to find a top independant technician, who is experienced in fully prepping pianos, and pay them to look at the piano in question, and assess its condition. We have had some of the pickiest techs imaginable really hold our feet to the fire, and this is part of why we take our approach. We also have had "techs" come in who we would not allow to dust our pianos exert their influence in this circumstance. We have a great professional relationship with many of the techs in our area and tremendous respect for professional technicians in general, but be warned. There are techs who claim independance, but have "arrangements" with one dealer or another. Unlike the dealer, where it is obvious that he is trying to sell you a piano, a techs hidden agenda may be harder to smoke out.

Once you find a qualified tech, they often will give a laundrey list of things to do to a piano before giving final approval. So if you really want to hedge your bet, and you don't trust your dealer, you will have to pay the tech to look over the piano twice. You can do 100 hours of prep, and a tech will always find something.

Larry,

You are the only one who has said right out of the box. What about a week later, or a month, or two months. Norbert seems to be delivering all of his pianos directly to his customers, and uncrates them there, does nothing, and everything is perfect. I haven't been able to find these prep free magic pianos, and I often don't sell one of my $50,000 or $100,000 pianos for 2 or three months or maybe even longer. The new high end pianos I buy, even though they have the best possible factory prep done,wood seasoning, workmanship,etc. are unstable when brand new, and require multiple regulation passes and tunings to get them stable at the standards set by the manufacturer. Everyone often buys new pianos that were completed in the winter, and then shipped and uncrated in summer, or vice versa. These pianos can be nearly perfect when uncrated, and then go wildly out of tune and regulation one week later. They then absolutely need multiple passes to get them to factory spec.
I also have never seen a new piano that couldn't be dramatically improved with expert voicing. Never. Not Mason & Hamlin, Steingraeber, Bluthner, or Bechstein.
And what I am describing is exactly what manufacturers recommend, from Young Chang,Yamaha, Kawai, Fazioli, Mason & Hamlin, Steinway, Bluthner, Steingraeber, etc.

I am not saying that all of this has to be done to sell a piano, or even to satisfy most customers. I am not saying that dealers who take a different approach are wrong, or bad.

As to your statement that top manufacturers insist that their dealers are able to do top level prep, I disagree. I find the norm to be that tier 1 pianos are being offered to and sold by dealers with woefully inadequate technical ability.

As to your comments that shoppers buying $50,000 pianos being more discriminating than shoppers with much lower budgets, I disagree. I have many good friends and clients who are sensitive pianists and highly discriminating, who can only afford a $10,000 grand or maybe a $5000 upright.

I do agree that to give excellent service you need customers to start with. And I think the approach you have described is one way to achieve that. Also, although we offer pianos at different price points, our focus is really the high end. I am sure that your experience in selling more affordable pianos, is much much greater than mine, and that is not a back handed compliment. It is one of the many things that I need to improve on, and I read your posts thoroughly and get a lot out of them.

I am sure that your experience in selling more affordable pianos, is much much greater than mine, and that is not a back handed compliment. It is one of the many things that I need to improve on, and I read your posts thoroughly and get a lot out of them.

I don't take it as a backhanded compliment, but it did make me realize that maybe thought I sold mostly midrange products. I was the second largest Bechstein dealer in the country, as well as handling several other premium makes. I was a Bosendorfer dealer for many years, and I'm a rebuilder. High end is what I do. You are not operating at a higher level than I am accustomed to. With 30+ years of it under my belt, I'd say I have more experience with the high end than *you* do. And I don't mean that as a backhanded "slap", just that I've been around for a long, long time.

I didn't mean to imply that in the slightest. Larry, with all of your experience, perhaps you should become an industry consultant. You could add that credential to your signature line, and be taken more seriously.

perhaps you should become an industry consultant.

I should.... but I've got to write the book first......

Keith, Alex, Larry, Chris et al,

I have deliberately kept out of this terrific thread that Keith started because I wanted to see where it would go. I’m always eager to learn things that might be of value to me and to my customers and this thread was sure to elicit information, thoughts and ideas that would be useful – at least so long as I kept my two cents out of it.

Okay, I’ve stayed quiet until now. Now it’s my turn to stir up the pot a bit.

First, I’m a bit perplexed that no one has mentioned two of the most crucial things that should be done as part of what I consider to be basic prep. The first is to examine and optimize each and every termination point (including re-seating strings and bridge pins as needed); the second is to determine, and correct as needed, optimum strike point.

Second, I find it strange that Keith considers voicing to be separate from basic prep. To my mind, touch and voice are so inter-related that voicing must be a central element in basic prep. Indeed, a substantial part of the time and effort that we invest into what I call basic prep has to do with voicing. This may all boil down to semantics. If so, no big deal. But then, what happens to the 20-hour calculation? Does voicing boost it to 24 hours?

Third, one of the reasons some of us don’t deal with certain piano brands is that they need at least as much prep as the pianos that we do deal with and the end result is not so satisfying. Since the cost of the prep work in these pianos often cannot be recouped, how could we possibly sell them? Well, as Larry and some others here have said, one way or the other, is that we need a different mindset. We don’t have to be so fussy with these pianos. Most customers who buy them won’t know the difference anyway. The few that do, we can visit later, after the piano has been broken in. If they’re still not happy after such a visit or two, they can trade up to something else. I can accept this and so should you Keith. Maybe it’s not right for you and me. For some of us, this is just not a fun way to be in the piano business. But it is a legitimate approach and I have no quarrel with those who take it. There are many people who want to own a piano who will never understand and so will never really need the good stuff. I take solace in knowing that a few of them will eventually seek a piano from you or me because they got started with an “affordable” piano that they bought somewhere else. It’s just unfortunate that they have to learn the hard way that the low trade-in value of their “affordable” piano has made the piano less “affordable” than they thought it was.

Fourth, I’m disturbed by the near-acrimonious tone in the dispute that has emerged here between Chris and Alex, two good people who have both contributed much that has been of value to this forum. There is no way that I can settle the dispute in favor of one or the other because they both have legitimate positions. On the one hand, as this thread clearly shows, there is a high degree of custom, pre-and post-sale attention that can be part of the sale of a piano. For some of us, such attention is an integral part of the piano sale. For others it is not. And that’s okay; some customers demand and expect attention, others want to buy a piano (or PSO) at a low price. Still others, like Chris, see some opportunity for arbitrage, a way to get good attention and lower price. And that’s where Chris and Alex have a problem. Chris isn’t wrong in wanting to exploit the arbitrage opportunity, but each time he, or someone else does this, it cuts into Alex’s business, penalizes him for providing the level of attention that he believes in and that he feels he should be fairly paid for. If all that has happened is that Alex has lost some business, well that’s life. Chris has the absolute right to seek and exploit his good deal. Unfortunately (and this is not at all meant as a cut at Chris) too often a good deal is not all that happens. Too often the arbitrage sours. Alex has lost a sale, the customer hasn’t gotten what he hoped for, and Alex is asked to clean up the mess. Believe me; I know exactly the frustration that Alex feels because I’ve also been asked to clean up the results of such arbitrage gone awry - more often than you might imagine. The end result is that everyone loses (the local dealer who lost the sale, the manufacture whose reputation has been hurt and, of course, the customer). Only the remote dealer who made the quick sale comes out ahead – but often not as much as he might think. He has earned some ill will and sometimes he loses his franchise.

KB,

Is it so presumptuous to beleive that a (rare) highly qualified Tech, could take a brand new out of the box German high end piano, and spend considerable time to rework action and tone so that it ends up rather better than it was? You did work @ Schimmel as a Tech, you know well the standards for the German Techs and school they learn at. Could one begin to say that after leaving the assembly line, they are impossible to make better, save after 6 months of playing?

(This is tongue in cheek, for I have also been to Factories, and seen thousands of out of the box top pianos, that with skill and knowledge where made even greater (not to the dismay but delight and expectation of their manufacturers.)

Irving,

It is about time you joined in.

Your point about optimizing each and every termination point is dead on. As is your point about optimum strike point. Very, very important stuff.

Yes, voicing and multiple tunings are absolutely part of basic prep, and will add even more time to the 20 hours I described. I didn't get into those things for a couple of reasons. I felt that voicing would be such a huge topic, that it deserved its own separate thread. I also feel that voicing, tone building, etc have already been written about here ( although certainly, many would be interested in further explanation) whereas other elements of prep were never explained. I also knew that my 20 hour number was going to get a strong reaction, so if I got into numbers like 25 hours, or 30 hours, people would think I was even more nuts.
I am really glad you joined in, Irving.

Keith, all: thanks for posts (regardless of position, I like seeing the different approaches). However, Keith, you didn't quite answer my question. I wasn't asking 'how to keep the dealer honest' by checking records, though given your list and others, I now have specific questions to ask, and if the dealer/salesperson says 'what's that' I have my answer. My question was: how does a beginning/amateur player tell walking into a new dealer, how well they prep their pianos, based on their own playing?

The reason is two-fold: (1) On PW people often post piano or dealer reports saying "Dealer X is famous for prep" or "Dealer Y preps the pianos poorly" or "I didn't like this [famous brand] piano, perhaps it was poorly prepped". Dealers, on the other hand, sometimes justify a premium price, by saying that their added value is, in part, superior prep. Other than the piano being out of tune (which I have experienced in piano shops and believe I can tell), what does one look for while playing? Even action on the keys, no internal noises on the sustenudo, or what?

(2) Does the extra level of prep make a big difference to the playing of a beginning or average to below-average hobbyist player (where I would put myself)? Perhaps this is at the root of Chris's and others concerns about prep levels (which doesn't come free, unless Keith and others run piano charities). What should such players notice? For example, I play fake book melodies experimenting with chord voicings and am trying some beginning Bach dances, playing about half an hour a day. I will never be a concert pianist, but I love music, enjoy what I am learning, and think even my entry-level upright piano in my home sounds much better than my very fancy stereo system. I suspect many piano buyers are like that, and not professional musicians. There seems to be a difference not about what concert pianist-level prep should be, but about cost-effectiveness (for both dealer AND customer) for the average piano sale and average piano buyer. Thanks in advance.

Irving,

I 100% agree with and accept the third point in your post. If some of my prior posts indicated otherwise, that was not my intention.

Manitou, this is not a ****ing contest about who is the best technician. You are so busy promoting your own ego that you are missing the entire point, and hindering productive discussion. Yes, it is presumptuous. Your first presumption is to bring Schimmel up as an example of a top line piano. I have no doubt many people here can do as good if not a better job than a Schimmel technician.

Stop stroking your ego and try to contribute something useful.

And perhaps also stop using drugs [ yourself! ]...

.....to understand the Elementary School Grade 1 points.....

......a lot of good people here have made by now about...

....1000 times.

norbert

Irving,

I don't have an ounce of ill will towards CJQ.
I am a bit jealous that his initials sound so cool though.

My intent was misunderstood. First and foremost my comment about price being a motivator but service being invaluable was not a sales pitch as was charged.

Secondly I have no problem with a dealer selling a piano to a person out of their area as long as the client knows what to expect. This implies actually previewing the piano in person to ensure that it is in fact the right instrument.

The dealer should also be realistic about the level of service they can render out of state.

I applaud CJQ's enthusiasm regarding pianos. If more people had it then American culture would be all the richer.

I am curious to hear Rich Gallisini's take on all of this.

Take care and happy fathers day!

One more opinion from a piano consumer.
After the piano had enough dealer/manufacturer prep for me to decide to buy it. . .
I chose to hire my own tech (one recommended by the manufacturer itself) to do the in home set-up, all tunings and voicing and regulation from day one.
I agreed to pay for all of the work out of my own pocket.
The dealer and I agreed to this *before* discussing price.

Good techs are very expensive, but worth it.

This was nice because it let the dealer off the hook financially for what can turn out to be a can of worms. (How many hours of prep is needed for the piano to finally be right?)
Who determines how much set up is right when it is included in the sale price?
The buyer?
The dealer?
The Tech?
When the dealer closed this deal he knew his post-sale maintenance costs would be exactly zero.

I got to choose the tech.
Also my tech has one boss now, not two.
He knows he has carte blanche to do whatever is needed to optimize the piano.
I think my prep dollars may go further since there is only one mouth to feed.
This is not cheap for me, but I think it is best for all 3 parties.

YMMV.

Manitou - I do hope you apologize to Norbert, who has helped several piano buyers on this site (who were not in his store and never would be), including MM (who posted publically) and myself (in a private e-mail). I have teased him about "speaking Canadian" before, but your post had a tone of hostility that doesn't seem warrented by anything he has ever said about you or anything else. You only make yourself look bad among the regular readers of PW.

Norbert - Thx for posting a different POV than Keith et at.