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What's the best 6 foot piano I can get for around $20,000?

This question seems to appear weekly around here, and a mix of old and new posters offer up an assortment of suggestions. The question almost always implies "NEW" piano, a few of us usually suggest used as well.

20k can get you a dream piano new, but maybe it can get you a used piano you may not have even dreamed of because of the expense of a new one.

What I would like to do in this post, is start a discussion, or poll, perhaps which will be useful as a FAQ item if we get enough input, so we can point the 'new' shopper to it as food for thought.

I'm thinking about used pianos that are new enough that an average consumer does not have to worry about significant service issues, that a competent tech would say "tune it and maybe a bit of regulation and it's as good as new"

I don;t know if that translates into a piano that is less than 20 years old or less than 10 years old, but the point would be that the piano was bought used, needed very little and has performed well. OR maybe it needed hammers but was still worth the expense compared to a new one.

I will re-title the topic based upon suggestions if we get enough responses to make it FAQ worthy.

PLease, only Grands (we'll start a vertical thread if necessary) and only used pianos that saved you a bundle compared to an equivalent new one.

I was open to the idea of a used piano in my search, but I only found high-priced Steinways and cheapies that were more suitable as firewood than what the owners thought their "baby" was worth.

Chris,

Excellent idea. If people here would put some serious thought into this and stay focused on the topic, this could surely turn into a fine resource.

My suggestion would be to look for a 1970's Steinway model L (not quite 6', but pretty close) that has been well maintained. Some of these will have soundboard issues, especially in the Northeast, but many will be fine. The price level should be easily attainable because these pianos have "Teflon" actions which devalue them (hence the attractive price) but they can serve the purposes of many people for a while at least. Eventually, the owner might want to install a new "cloth" action (for about $5,000), but if the Teflon action is good enough when the piano is bought, it might remain good enough for a long while.

If you look in the used market you don't even need $20k to find a VERY nice 6'ish grand. Mine is one proof of this...

chris, this would have been my first choice, too. i did look at a number of 20 year old grotrians but they had issues i wasn't confident enough to tackle. there is also the perennial problem of the private seller who believes his piano is worth far more than the market will bear.

gently used high end pianos are very difficult to find, in my experience. especially if steinway isn't really your sound.

i was able to find kawais and yamahas, only ten years old, and traded in by people who were trading up to a better piano, but even though the price was right, the piano was not. for me.

now, in retrospect, i think some of my problem in locating this sort of piano is that i didn't understand enough about the role that good regulation and voicing play. that "showroom sheen" on a factory voiced and regulated instrument vanishes after so many hours of playing, and it is hard for the novice to imagine the potential that might exist in a newer piano that has lost it. i can think back on a number of pianos i looked at that this might have been the issue.

but, still, they are hard to find. i fell in love with the charles walter, but couldn't find a used one to save my life. (talking about the grands, now.)

I bought my 1927 Hamburg Steinway M for exactly $20,000.

With total honesty, I can say that it is a better piano than ANY $20,000 NEW piano that I personally, have ever played. The well-maintained, used, quality piano is one of the best steals there is.

Please give details. Thanks

when I was shopping last year I could have recently built Baldwin L's for much less than 20k, so do give details.

Irving's comment on the Steinway L is exactly how my piano teacher found his Steinway.

It is possible to luck into a good deal on a used piano. I'd have a hard time putting a timeframe on how old a good used piano should be, since maintenance on used pianos is so important. I've seen some 50-year old pianos that were in excellent shape, and other 20-year old pianos that were junk.

However, unless you're in a major market, I do believe it is going to be quite difficult to find a good used European piano. They're uncommon here, even in piano stores. To locate one in Pennysaver, Craig's List or other home sale is even less common. I'd consider major markets to be NYC area, Chicago, Los Angeles and ...? that's perhaps about it.

Good point, I'm so NYC-centric I often overlook the 'market' issue.

But, if some people are going all over to find the best $20k new piano (out of state, even) why not widely expand your shopping area for a 20k USED piano?

I saw a 14k Steinway M that, quite literally, looked like it spent some time in a lake.

So yes, there's lots of junk out there. That should be part of the the FAQ. IF shopping for a new piano is HARD (and it is), shopping for a used piano is definitely harder.

I could have bought a 20 year old Baldwin SF10 that had been in WGUCs recording studio and immaculately maintained for $18K asking last week.

So, yeah.. you can get a great used piano for that price.

There were a couple of SF10s on the market last year at <20k. Maybe one of the best ~20k bargains out there if it's a good one. I haven't played one in years, but I remember re-visiting the dealer where I bought my last piano - a Baldwin M - Larkin Piano in Binghampton 10 years ago - and playing the SF there thinking it was incredible. i'd love to play one again soon, and I think I'll have the opportunity since I'm going to visit Rich G and he has one there.

Great thread, Chris. On my thread you mentioned:

The lack of name recognition on many quality German pianos makes their resale not so great, and makes them the best buy IMO.

I know you have and enjoy your August Förster (envy) -- what other German brands would you suggest that I look at?

As an aside (esp. for those in the business)-- what is a typical price for a new set of quality hammers/felts installed?

Also, if one broadens one's search -- and once I get on an airplane it can be anywhere in the continent -- would $600 - $800 be reasonable for shipping a grand?

Thanks,

Steve
Phoenix AZ

Judging by ads on PW and PianoMart, the Boston area appears to be a very big market as well. Doesn't help us folks in the South, though.

Steve:

When I was shopping like mad last year, I saw advertised Schimmels and Seilers in the price range I'm talking about. They were not in my area though. I can only speculate about the other makes, maybe we'll get good feedback in this thread on actual sales data.

Re: hammers. Hopefully Chris W in Dallas will chime in. He bought a Baldwin L and did some work including hammers and is very happy with the piano (it's a beauty too, he posted pics of it).

They're ALWAYS somewhere else, aren't they?

I agree with Irving & Mikester, though I think a modicum of luck is needed. I got lucky. After wanting to like Vogel or Estonia because they were in my price range, but having difficulty doing so, I ended up with a rebuilt 1920s Steinway M for $18,500. The luck part is that the well-respected rebuilder determined that the board was in good shape and the case had been re-done by others a while ago and was just fine, so the final cost to him was much less than a total rebuild. The piano is way better than I ever thought I would get for less than $20k. As a result the much anticipated piano shopping odyssey I was expecting took a little less than two weeks.

Used, 20K and under.

1. Baldwin SF10 - overlooked and underappreciated, a very good piano. May be a bit bigger than desired.

2. Rebuilt Steinway - getting harder and harder to find for the price ceiling. M&H is also rapidly falling into this category.

3. Rebuilt "other" - Knabe, Baldwin, Chickering, Ivers&Pond, Weber, and the like. The names don't have the cachet of Steinway, but they are very good pianos. For instance, you find a lot of Hardmans in New York. Rebuilt, they are a very nice piano.

4. Recent vintage Baldwin L - some gripe about the break in scale, but should easily be found for less than 20K.

5. CW190 - for this kind of money, you're talking 5 years old, or less.

6. European pianos - most folks couldn't come up with the name of one European piano if you held a gun to their head. Think Schimmel, Sauter, Seiler, Bluthner, Pleyel, Bechstein and Schulze-Pollman. Money will depend upon age, condition, and market. Some markets will dictate a high price. In my part of the world, you'd die before you moved a used 20K Bluthner.

7. The top Asians - Shigeru and Yamaha's best. A good Shigeru is a nice piano indeed.

Those are some of the pianos that would be on my list...

Doesn't even need to be a Shigeru or a Yamaha S-series. An RX-series or a C-series piano, less than 10 years young, a big one, 6'6" and up, should do very well -- will very likely leave enough money on the table for you to put in a Dampp-Chaser and hire a good tech to tweak the heck out of it. Those who picked up used C7's should know very well.

Axt,

Would you mind giving brief details of your RX find, to stick with this thread forever and ever?

Thanks