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Very well now...let's see...if you were to buy X brand piano, the ones I outlined at the beginning of the thread, and be asked by the dealer..."Mr customer,if you like to haggle a little......
[ and most people DO by the way!] ...then what do you really think to be a 'FAIR' price for this piano here??"

[Notwithstanding the fact that most of us wouldn't even pay a 'FAIR' price if they could get away with even less!!]

Some of us are good 'hagglers'..others.... have missed a career as an economics professor, perhaps at Harvard university.

[And I know that others here would also sympathize with the one customer who came to my store last week and was looking for a 'fairly new' Yamaha grand for about $1000!]

FORWARD, Forum troops, fire your Dollar and
Cents cannons! Gimme [PLEASE!] more figures!!

Thank you for the [painful!] cooperation!

You shall be rewarded!

ok, norbert, just what is this reward? are your marketing honchos going to give each of us the grand piano of our choice?

Ya want figures? I'll give you figures! And I liked Diurmand's! Remember, this is not what they cost, this is what they SHOULD cost (I play the same game with the Oscars. There's who will win and who SHOULD win!)

Assuming ebony polish for all, except M&H, which only does an ebony satin

5'6" Estonia $12k
6'3" Estonia $15k
6'3" Petrof $14k
6'3" Charles Walter $16k
6'1" Schimmel $16k
6'1" Schimmel diamond series $16,000.01
6'3" Hoffman $16k
6'3" Schulze Pollmann $18k
6'6" Schulze Pollmann $21k
6'3" Pleyel $18k
6'3" Seiler $19k
6'1" Sauter $22k
5'8" Mason & Hamlin $16k
6'10" Mason & Hamlin $32k
6'3" Grotrian $25k
6'3" Bluthner $25k
6'3" Steingraeber $25k
6'3" Bosendorfer $25k
6'3" Bechstein $25k
getting the idea here with the top-tier???

Steinway M $15k
Steinway L $20k
Steinway B $32k

OK, Norbert, how'd I do?

penny

OK, Norbert, I've never shopped for a new piano in my life, but I've read a bit about them here, and I have a few opinions.



I'd guess about $35,000ish. Probably more than it "should" be, but again, perception or value/resale in a market, even a deluded market, means something, and maybe that makes this a "fair" amount.



About $48,000ish, with the same reasoning above.



$19,000, 21,000, 23,000.



$22,000 - 24,000.



$18,000 - 20,000.

So there are my WAG's of prices that I would not be surprised or afraid to see on the various pianos. But I can't say that I think they're "fair", I just don't have enough info to call them that.

I remember when a Steinway M was about 7K, a Baldwin L 6K, a Yamaha C-2 about 5K, and a Kawai KG-2 3.5 K.

All the wonderful :rolleyes: Starrs, Winters, Wurlitzers, and Kimballs were even less.

SUPER PENNY !!

Now ........there's a gal with GUTS!!

Cheap, but not cheap enough for paupers like me!

I'll stick with my $2k Bluthner 6'3"... even if it is as old as my grandma.

On a serious note, I think the price of a new Grotrian 6'3" is about £20k/$28k(?) in Europe. I don't know what they are in the US, but that seems fairly reasonable to me.

Not that I have the money, but I can dream... :rolleyes:

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: jazzyd ]

"list" price for a new grotrian 6'3" as per the larry fine piano supplement is $54K. at the piano mill in boston, where prices are non-negotiable, they are asking, if memory serves, $34K for the same model. if you live in an area of the u.s. where there is no grotrian dealer, the distributor will sell you one directly for approx. $30K. (however, you can not play it before purchase.) they are apparently far less expensive in germany, but then of course you have to pay duty and shipping, etc. from what i understand, it would still be less expensive to buy direct in germany.

Hey Penny! I'm with you all the way

Penny, gotta love the way you differentiated between the Schimmel "traditional" and "diamond" series!!! I think the difference in list price is about 10k if memory serves me.

Hi,
Well, since we're talking prices, tell me something about this story. I bought my first new piano in 1980. (well now you know I'm not a "babe") It was a Steinway L in Chicago. At that time I knew nothing about prices/mark-ups or anything. But, I played several pianos and shopped around. I went back to this store about 5 times before purchasing. I just paid the price on the piano. I'd like some of the old "codgers" here to tell me what I could have gotten the piano for. I never attemped to haggle at all. And, no tunings or adjustments were even mentioned. I know...DUH! Quite a different story than Pique's. BTW, I paid $12,500. Bye

My list, because I am still not sure what this question is driving at, revolves around my own idea of what these pianos are worth on musical merit. It makes these BIG assumptions:

-All companies are the same size (amortizing R&D, to the extent there was any, equally, etc)
-All pianos depreciate at the same rate and can find a market similarly
-All are black and appear essentially nameless
-All are found in the highest form of prep/repair possible (this will skew my numbers pretty good)
-All pianos have similar longevity (ROTFL)
-That the Bosendorfer 225 wasn't the last one I played

This is not by any means a cut throat list of the lowest prices I've seen:

7'4' Bosie (225) - 38k (Go figure)
Fazioli 7'+ - 37
Grot 6'3 - 32
bech 208 - 35
bech 189 - 32
new/used stein b - 35
used stein a - 32
used stein o - 30
petrof 6'3 23
estonia 6'3 - 23
Charles W - 26
Mason BB - 30
Schimmel 7' - 30
Seiler 180 - 28
Sauter 180'ish - 28

Its getting close to year since I played anything other than the above, so no comment on them.

DISCLOSURE:
The previous assumptions make this completely, and utterly, the most useless compilation of opinions I have ever submitted to the forum. It is, however, clear of any input from the French, or Russian judges.

Flames suit, check.. Outta here.
Chris W

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Chris W1 ]

On the contrary ChrisW1...they could be the
..... MOST USEFUL ones ....yet!

Wait and see.

I think that I will take a stab at this. Since we are talking about, basically, a contrived set of assumptions and throwing economics out the window (I'm okay with that. Norbert is free to pose a question any way he likes) I will make some assumptions of my own.

First I will assume three tiers of pianos and within each tier, three size ranges (lengths). Added to this is the assumption that pianos within the same tier of similar size should be competitive with one another.
Tier 1
are the Bosies, Bechsteins, Steinways, Mason & Hamlin, and let's even throw Fazioli in here. There are others but we all know what they are.

Tier 2
Yamaha, Kawai, Estonia, Petrof, et al.

Tier 3
Pearl River, Nordiska, Young Chang, Samick, et al.

Sizes are:
L1 - 5'4" to 5'8"
L2 - 5'8" to 6'5"
L3 - 6'5" to 7'5"

These are my prices:

Tier 1:
L1 - 25K
L2 - 30K
L3 - 35K

Tier 2:
L1 - 12K
L2 - 16K
L3 - 20K

Tier 4:
L1 - 6K
L2 - 8K
L3 - 10K

These are ballpark figures and my flame suit is tightly secured. I am probably farthest off on the Tier 1 but, then, I think these manufacturers are awfully proud of these pianos but, of course, the people that buy them are awfully proud to own them.

I don't know what Norbert is driving at, but I do know this: --- the Pearl River rep who hides on here is probably pretty happy to have just been listed along with Young Chang & Samick....

Ya know,


I started a thread awhile back on whether any folks from the industry ever check in on our little piano board.

A lot of the answers were nope, nada, zip, maybe a couple of bored dealers, etc. A bunch of crazies howling at the moon (I like Ib's analogy).

If you keep catching tidbits from various posters, who do work in the business, we are monitored a lot more than was suggested.

Maybe we ain't so crazy, afterall!


AAAWWHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

I've just deleted my post because I made a capital error in converting euro's to dollars. Will do the math again, and repost it. Sorry.

This should encourage people to jump in but that's okay Larry. I can take it. :p

Here’s a European take on this pricing issue. Below in the left column are the fixed prices I would have to pay in The Netherlands (there’s no haggling done over here). Supposing the production costs are equal, prices are also influenced by quality and prestige, the latter of which is IMO “not” fair. Also there’s this very valid point Stanza made about the law of diminishing returns. Therefore, I would substract a certain percentage of each of these prices depending on what I think is unneccessary dollars paid for the prestige/snobbism-factor and the diminishing-returns-factor. For example
Boston may be overpriced because of the connection with Steinway,
the German piano’s may have very good quality, but this also adds to the prestige-factor,
the Bösendorfer suffers from the diminishing-returns-factor,
up-and-coming Estonia and Petrof won’t charge you extra because they “are” up-and-coming, and
Yamaha has become such a big name that they think they can get away with overcharging, which alas they can.
Please note that the percentages I’m taking off are my humble opinion only and based on what meager knowledge of pianos I’ve gained in the last year based on Larry Fine’s book and reading the respected opinions of you all piano world forum members.

(length: 182cm = 6’, 213cm = 7’, 240cm = 8’)

Boston GP 193: $22.562 -/- 30% = $15.793
Boston GP 218: $28.168 -/- 30% = $19.718
Kawai RX3 185: $17.963 -/- 20% = $14.370
Kawai RX5 197: $20.844 -/- 20% = $16.675
Kawai RX6 212: $23.490 -/- 20% = $18.792
Kawai RX7 227: $26.608 -/- 20% = $21.286
Yamaha C5 200: $23.081 -/- 30% = $16.157
Yamaha C6 212: $25.708 -/- 30% = $17.996
Yamaha C7 227: $29.232 -/- 30% = $20.462
Estonia 190: $19.542 -/- 0% = $19.542
Petrof 192: $12.338 -/- 0% = $12.338
Petrof 192 M: $16.675 -/- 0% = $16.675
Petrof 236: $23.522 -/- 0% = $23.522
Schulze-Pollmann. F 190: $18.470 -/- 10% = $16.623
Pleyel 190: $24.674 -/- 10% = $22.207
Hoffmann 190: $17.400 -/- 25% = $13.050
Haessler H 185: $23.296 -/- 25% = $17.472
Schimmel SP 182 TJ: $22.794 -/- 20% = $18.235
Schimmel SP 182 TE: $21.315 -/- 20% = $17.052
Schimmel CC 213T: $25.665 -/- 20% = $20.532
Schimmel CC 213 DE: $28.014 -/- 20% = $22.411
Schimmel CO 256 T: $31.929 -/- 20% = $25.543
Sauter Delta 186: $24.100 -/- 25% = $18.075
Seiler 180: $22.368 -/- 25% = $16.776
Seiler 208: $26.796 -/- 25% = $20.097
Yamaha S4 190: $31.503 -/- 35% = $20.477
Yamaha S6 212: $37.845 -/- 35% = $24.600
Grotrian-Steinweg 192: $28.101 -/- 30% = $19.670
Grotrian-Steinweg 225: $36.192 -/- 30% = $25.334
Bösendorfer CS 200: $35.018 -/- 35% = $22.761
Bösendorfer CS 212: $39.237 -/- 35% = $25.504

Wow, that’s more math than I’ve done in years….. Hope this helps, Norbert!

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: sparrow ]

I've stayed out of this because I'm not an active shopper at this time and only have dreams. It's very difficult to approach the question of a fair price until one is actively seeking a piano - the reality of facing "the decision" makes one dig a little deeper for information and reflect on what's really important. Based on what I hope will happen financially for my family over the next couple of years, I'll be looking at 6' pianos such as Estonia, CW, or S-P for my daughter and son.

However, I'll take a stab anyways. My definition of a fair price has two parts - a) it's a price where I feel that everyone involved has gotten a reasonable deal - b) it's a price below which I would feel that I've gotten a bargain. Whether I'd jump at such a piano would depend on if my daughter loved it and if I could somehow find the money.

Based on what I've learned over the last couple of years reading this forum, I'm sort of in the middle between Penny and Chris W. I think a fair price for the Estonia 6'3" is around 18-20K. For the CW 20-22K, for the S-P 20-22K and for Petrof 20-22K.

I notice that I just put the Estonia slightly lower in price than the others - I'm not sure I can really justify this - maybe it's just wishful thinking - hoping that the prices will still be there later on.

For the others, if you just average Penny's and Chris W's numbers you won't be hugely off from my naive impressions.