Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum FAQ - Piano Forum Kawai vs. Boston

Don't blame me, Chopstix requested this :p

There can be a lot of confusion about the two pianos, IMO they are both great pianos and Kawai has done a superb job in the RX line. There are some differences however that I feel do make a difference:

The most obvious difference is the square tail soundboard on the Boston series. I'm sure many of you have heard some salespeople go on about this ad nauseum, and while it does make for a slightly bigger soundboard; the important part about the design (according to a technician and designer I trust) is that it helps center the bridge a little more evenly.

Another difference is in the action. Not the ABS vs. wood debate, I think Kawai has done a great job proving the benefits of ABS; but in the design itself. The Boston action does use the same geometry as found in Steinways, this does allow for a slightly quicker repitition, and several more degrees of dynamic control.

Another difference IMO deals with the materials. Boston uses a slightly higher grade of spruce than most Kawais I've seen. Slightly closer grain pattern and slightly straighter grain. The felt seems a little more resilient as well. The Bostons in our teaching studios don't need to be voiced as often as the Kawais.

OTOH, a lot of Bostons I've played at some dealers couldn't compare to some of the RX's on my floor. The problem is the same one that alot of people feel is inherent in Steinways. These pianos require a lot of prep. When you uncrate a Kawai, you tune it, let it sit, tune it again, and you have a great sounding piano. When you uncrate a Boston, you need to tune it, let it sit, tune it again, do a little voicing (particularly in the mid through treble usually), and maybe a little regulating. When it's done, a well prepared Boston sounds better and plays better than a well prepared RX. Unfortunately, not all dealers put the work necessary into the Bostons. If they did, this discussion wouldn't be occuring as often as it does.

Now for the rebuttal:

Luke's Dad,

I thought your post very lucid and informative on what is an often hashed-over subject. May I probe you a bit further by asking about "Knabe"?

Where is it made, by whom, and what is it really, now? I don't mean the quotes around "Knabe" to be a smart-alek thing, but I admit that while anybody who's paid for a trademark can certainly put it on anything they please, it does rather stimulate my sad glands when names that once denoted high quality appear under more dubious flags. Do you have any thoughts about this?

Thanks.

That's the Steinway sales spin, but not the facts. The only difference in a Steinway "accelerated action" and other actions (should we call them "decelerated"?) is that instead of beveling the sides of the balance rail, Steinway uses a rounded balance rail. Anyone who has even glanced at a piano key sitting on the balance rail can see that it simply doesn't make the slightest bit of difference whether the rail is rounded or beveled. With the bushings between the key and the rail, they both clear just fine. Claims that Steinway "accelerated" actions give the piano quicker repetition and "several more degrees of dynamic control" is nothing more than marketing BS. No offense to you, you're simply repeating what you've been told.

As for felts and soundboard quality being different, chalk that one up to your being influenced by marketing too. The felts used in both pianos are exactly the same, and the soundboards used will end up in whichever piano happens to be going down the assembly line. There is no difference. You may have found a few Bostons that looked better than a few Kawais, but it was pure coincidence. Limit your examination to just Kawai, and you'll find some of them will be better than others too. It's wood after all. No two pieces are alike.

William,

I really enjoyed your informative post regarding Kawai's production of the Boston line of pianos.

As I read your presentation I had the following thoughts.

And what exactly is the benefit of "centering" the bridge? How does it aid in the bridges performance? How does it optimize the extra soundboard area? If this is a design enhancement would Steinway ever incorporate it?

Does the Boston use the half round dowel for the balance rail like Steinway does?

Does a Steinway action have better repitition then a Renner action? And if so how does that effect the value and performance of Steinways made between 1980 and 1985 since those pianos contained Renner actions?

Again I am not trying to start a flame war but after reading your post I had several questions regarding the information you presented.

Soundboard performance is dependent on many things. Is a Boston a better sounding instrument then the Charles Walter 190? The Walter restricts energy going to areas of the soundboard that detract from its clarity.

How does the treble sustain of the Boston compare to other instruments in its size?

I welcome your input on this subject. The whole Boston/Steinway relationship has needed clarification for some time. Please answer these long standing questions.

What does the Boston use for it's rim material?

Does the Boston use the diaphragmatic soundboard?

Does the Boston use the hexagrip pinblock?

As my signature says I am a dealer who represents other makers and I will to the best of my ability answer any questions you may have.

Thanks.

Hammerhead,

The Knabe pianos are being made by Samick now. Up until recently they were being built by Young Chang. Unfortunately,those pianos were not the greatest quality and hurt the brand name. They were mostly made as a cheap piano for Piano Disc installs. (Caution! you may still find pianos bearing the Knabe name brand new in stores that were the Young Chang Knabes) I don't mean that to be derogatory of Young Chang, the PG series are very nice pianos. The new Knabes by Samick are supposed to be based off of the original scale designs of Knabes built in Baltmore. As I'm not a technician, I can't say for sure if this is true, but I can tell you that a while back, Samick was buying up every old Knabe they could get their hands on. Whether it is the original scales or not, it is a much improved piano over the regular Samick and Kohler & Campbells. Frankly, to me, it sounds pretty close to the Kohler & Campbell Millenium series. The Knabes are new to my store, so I still have a lot to learn about them. Does anybody else have more info? I'd be very grateful!


Larry,

I've been very impressed with many of the things I've seen posted from you, you really seem to know your stuff about pianos. Plus your ability to articulate your point is fantastic. However, I fear you may be misinformed on several points:
The accelerated action does not involve the rounded balance rail. The rounded balance rail was a completely seperate patent that came out in the same year. The accelerated action, which was patented in 1936, actually deals primarily with the method of weighting the keys. If you like, I can forward you the patent numbers and specs if you would like. A lot of Steinway salespeople make the same mistake you did.(As a side note, the accelerated action was designed by the Josef Hofman who also invented the modern shock absorber!) As far as the geometry of the action goes, if you compare the whippen and jack assembly of the Boston and Kawai pianos, they clearly do not match up. Now anybody that passed a highschool physics class can understand that any difference in the length or angle of a lever (Which, in simplest terms is what the action of a piano is, a series of levers) will affect the velocity and resistance of the lever and the mass it's moving. Plus, frankly, I've got nothing to gain in using a marketing tool. I sell both of these pianos, and at pretty comparable pricing. It doesn't matter to me financially if they choose a Kawai or a Boston. Yet time and time again if both pianos are prepared properly, the majority of my clients do feel a difference. If principles seem to make scientific sense, and most clients feel s\the difference in a neutral environment, that doesn't feel like spin to me. As far as the felt, soundboard, etc..., all anybody has to do is pull a hammer from both pianos and compare, the shape and consistancy are different. I'm not making any claims that can't be proven just by looking at them and using common sense. However, I am in an unusual position in that I do carry both brands. Gives me a chance for a little more comparisons.

Alex,

As far as the centering of the soundboard, I'm not too sure of that myself. As I explained, the principle was taught to me by a tech that I generally trust not to put a spin on things. As far as Steinwaever using it: It's based off of the design used in the Steinway models L, A, and B. As far as the Renner action, which Renner action? The one used by Samick, Estonia, Bluthner, or just about anybody else who ever built a piano. Renner is a manufacturer that builds products to their customer specifications. Does anybody believe that a Renner action used in a Kohler & Campbell is the same as the Renner action used by Bluthner? Of course not. All I can say there is this, I am incapable of outplaying the actions of Steinway and Bluthner (Or Bechstein, or Fazioli, or Bosendorfer, etc....)

As far as the sound of a Boston vs. a CW190, first that's completely subjective, and second, this post is concerning Boston vs. Kawai. (I would like to put a well prepped instrument of CW in a room with a Boston and make that side by side comparison some day)

And for your final questions:

Inner rim: Matoa, same as Kawai
Soundboard: Tapered, not diaghramatic
Pinblock: Not hexagrip, but is hard rock maple

My opinion is this: A Boston is not quite as close to a Steinway as Boston dealers would like you to think; it's also not quite as close to a Kawai as others would like you to think. The truth, as usual is somewhere between the two.

William,

Thanks for the reply I appreciate the effort my friend. But mentioning A Steinway in the same breath as a Bluethner is straining your credibilty (j/k).

I feel the diaphragmatic design is a wonderful way of dealing with the problems a compression crowned soundboard represents but I feel there are other designs that do even a better job.

I think people should judge a Boston on it's merits and not be led to believe it's a cheaper Steinway.

And lastly your point about Renner actions is well taken but you suggested greater dynamic control and repitition with the Steinway action.
I think that is a slippery slope at best.

I have sold many new Steinways in my time and know they were great pianos...but when it came time to buy my ultimate instrument I purchased a Bluethner (almost a Foerster).

I see you own a Steinway and I think that's great. We both believe in our makers.

P.S. I kid Steinway but believe me the respect I have for them is genuine.

Close, but just far enough off to be wrong. The rounded balance rail may have a separate patent, but the fact remains it is a major component of what is called the "accelerated action". I think most people here would believe Ed Foote, so here is a post Ed made some time back regarding the "accelerated action"

Ed Foote post in the PTG Forum

Then we can look at Steinway's website and see a listing of their patents. The only thing you find mentioning an "accelerated action" talks about the key mounting - ie balance rail.


Yet time and time again if both pianos are prepared properly, the majority of my clients do feel a difference. If principles seem to make scientific sense, and most clients feel s\the difference in a neutral environment, that doesn't feel like spin to me. As

Back when Kimball was in business I was one of their bigger dealers. I was also a Kawai dealer. Many times I'd have this situation - the parents would bring their teacher with them to look at the Kimball grand they'd fallen in love with, only to have the teacher turn her nose up before she even sat down to play it, and tell them they had to buy a Kawai. If they couldn't afford the Kawai, that left them afraid to buy the one they wanted, unable to buy the one the teacher wanted, and many would end up not getting anything.

I solved the problem. I fabricated a Kimball fallboard that would sit in the slot of a KG2, and a Kawai fallboard that would sit in the slot of a 5'8" Kimball. When the teacher would start in about how awful the Kimball was, I'd ask her to please give them a chance, "just play this one over here that I have specially prepped". While she was playing the Kawai that said Kimball and telling the parents how awful it was, I'd be telling the parents what was happening. Then I'd ask her to play the Kimball that said Kawai on it. After she'd brag on its rich tone, excellent touch, and tell the parents how much superior it was to the "Kimball" she had just played, many times the folks would then thank the teacher for her time, and after she left, they'd buy the Kimball they wanted.

My point then is the same as I make now - preconcieved notions plus a little suggestion,the right atmosphere, and you can get whatever response you want out of most people. This is sales 101, and it's as old as the hills.

I don't mean this in a confrontational way, by the way. Nor do I mean to leave the impression that you are purposely swaying people. I'm simply saying on this point that many people will sway themselves. Try an experiment - make a Boston say Wurlitzer or something on it, and then don't say a thing. Just place it next to a Kawai, and listen to the comments. It may surprise you what you hear.

-----------------------------------------------
Larry:
... I solved the problem. I fabricated a Kimball fallboard that would sit in the slot of a KG2, and a Kawai fallboard that would sit in the slot of a 5'8" Kimball. When the teacher would start in about how awful the Kimball was, ...
----------------------------------------------

Gees Larry, did you really do this!? From what I know about piano teachers, they'd have had multiple contracts out on you, tried to run you over in the parking lot themselves, or at least trashed you to their pupils and parents with the most vile invective a real or imaged erudite education could conjure up. Oh, it's clever and I don't doubt the results, but I am curious if this caused you any repercussions, and are you recommending the use of such "reality-revealing" tactics??

HH

Not to agree with Larry (wouldn't that be a cardinal sin!) But I think he's hit the nail on the head.

It's important for people to know the truth about these matters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the Boston was simply produced in the Kawai factory, then labeled "Boston". It wouldn't make sense to me that there would be a factory where they produced the same piano twice, one slightly different than the other. As far as key weighting goes (again, correct me if I'm wrong), but I was under the impression that Steinway was static weighting their keys just like everyone else is doing. Steingraeber is the only one that I know of who's really trying to revolutionize the key weighting scheme.

Now of course there are slight variations in the way actions are weighted, but for the most part, these manufacturers are doing the same thing in the factory. 52 (or 48) grams on the front of the key, move two lead weights around the back of the key until front drops, pencil mark, drill, swedge. Maybe you're referring to a graduated weighting scale? Maybe that's what's considered "accelerated"... but again, it's not unique. A lot of manufacturers also graduate their weighting scale from bass to treble.
I'm not trying to flame here, so please don't take it as that. I'm just trying to clarify in my head what's actually going on here. What I read in your post seemed like repeated facts, rather than a comprehensive understanding of the design attributes being discussed. Again I don't want to start anything, but to my understanding, the Boston and the Kawai are the same thing. I was under the impression that there weren't any design differences.

As for one piano needing just a tuning, and the other needing "a little regulation". I know that Kawai has a reputation of being pretty close out of the box. But let's be honest, both of these pianos can use a lot of prep work out of the box. As can most pianos. A Boston needs more than a little regulation work, unless we're just trying to get it working good enough that nobody notices anything wrong with it.

KlavierBauer

Originally posted by KlavierBauer:

"Steingraeber is the only one that I know of who's really trying to revolutionize the key weighting scheme."

What are they doing?

As a teacher, I could see myself sitting there playing, thinking to myself hmmmmm, why is the bass so thin. Must need voicing, or maybe it's the acoustics of where the piano sits. Action doesn't feel crisp, probably needs regulating. Is it my imagination? hmmmm, if I lean on the bass I can compensate somewhat, still sounds shallow (these guys don't know how to prep a piano, but I won't say that out loud). But, I know the potential of these instruments (we'll get my tech to bring out the potential), so I'll keep my negative comments out of this and recommend to my student based in large part on my years of experience. After all, I'm not the kind of person that wants to make a salesperson or store owner feel uncomfortable by being confrontational, I'm too gracious a person, and purchasing a fine instrument should be a joyous occasion, not a result of condemnation of one brand over another.

And then, Larry makes a fool out of the teacher, and nothing the teacher can say would get him/her out of the situation.

Making a teacher out to be a fool is not a good sales tactic, in my opinion. This is "Sales Weasel" brought to the highest level: making a sale at the expense of the integrity of a teacher.

If I EVER heard of such a tactic used, I would blacklist the dealer, and let everyone in the local MTNA know about this, as well as colleagues in local colleges/universities.

You would do better to educate the teachers in your area with information, rather than trick them so you could make a sale.

But did not Norbert use a similar tactic, by placing a Steinway stencil on a Chinese Bergmann?

He didn't sell the piano that way, or course, but he did make his point: Too many of us engage in "fallboard phallicism", or pick what we "think" is right, rather than what our hands and ears tell us.

Let's go waaaaay back, and remember the case of Nils Luehrman. Now, I know that many on the board did not care for his attitude on many things, but I remember his piano safari quite well. It was only after he started to make sure by various means, the marque of the piano would make no impact upon the buying process, that he finally found "his" piano. And that piano turned out to be a K&C grand.

Preconceptions are not always good.

I don't think you've got the whole picture here.

What's "sales weasel" about showing people they are getting bad advice from a pinhead who shouldn't even be there trying to help?

The teachers who came in with an open mind like you described yourself as having didn't get taken to these pianos. So I'll ask you a question: John & Jill Smith are looking to buy little Jennifer a piano. John & Jill have set up unreasonable parameters - Jill insists on a grand or nothing, and John is only able (or willing) to spend 6K. They don't know beans about pianos. I spend half a day with them helping them find the best grand for their money. They find one, and they love it.

Little Jennifer of course, just wants to learn to play the piano. She can't write a check for anything. She has to go with whatever the adults decide to do.

But John and Jill are "smart consumers"..... they know to get that piano teacher over and have him or her approve their selection! After waiting yet *another* week for the adults to make a decision, in walks little Jennifer with her parents, and the teacher. The teacher is a self important bag of hot air. SHE knows *everything* about pianos, I am nothing more than someone to sneer at and dismiss as nothing more than some money grubbing used car salesman. *SHE'S on the scene, and she's going to save the day!!! She walks over to the 6K grand, turns her nose up at it before she even tries it because it doesn't have her favorite brand name on the front. She proceeds to sit down and tell them all the reasons it isn't as good as the 25K piano down the row. Then she takes them to the 25K piano and tells them they shouldn't buy *anything* until they can afford to get one of these.

Now, being the professional that I am, I have already explained to John and Jill about the better pianos, and have been completely honest with them about what the 6K piano is. When they left the last time they were aware of all these factors and were happy with their "near decision". But there is that issue of trust and motives - to John and Jill, since I am the one selling, even though they can tell I am being honest with them, they are afraid not to give the teacher the benefit of the doubt, since to them he/she has no profit motive, and is, after all......

a "professional".....
So....

Little Jennifer goes home without a piano. John and Jill are determined that they will save up for the "right piano". And every day, little Jennifer gets older, living without a piano, and without learning how to play one. Do you really think I give a big rat's behind what that teacher thinks of me? Not one bit. He/she has acted in an unprofessional manner, and allowed her own ignorance and lack of common sense to deny little Jennifer what she wanted - a piano. I for one will not sit there and let such a teacher do this kind of damage to little Jennifer. I will expose him/her for the ignorant, self important blowhard that she is, and she can just deal with it. Because I know there are a lot more than this one teacher in the teacher's association, and most of them already know what an idiot she is, and would agree with me.

I've had to deal with all kinds of teachers. I've had them come in the day before their appointment with me and the parents to say "Dealer X will pay me 400$ for telling these people to buy their piano. If you want them to buy yours, 400$ is the price to beat". Do you think I give a big rat's behind about that teacher? No. I simply go to the phone, call the customer, and tell them their teacher is in the store a day early, in fact she is standing there now if they'd like to talk to her, and she is negotiating for pay. "She says she's going to tell you to buy the one at Dealer X unless I pay her more than they will, and I just wanted to know how much you want me to add to the price to cover her extortion."

I've had teachers come in and be very professional, who will discuss with me right in front of the customer what their budget is, and upon hearing the situation, judge the piano as a 6K piano, fully understanding that the main goal is to get little Jennifer a piano. I've had them admit that they really don't know that much about pianos other than their own personal preference for touch and tone, and tell the customer that she trusts my integrity, and the piano they've picked out plays really nice.

Most of them simply tell their students to come see me and buy whatever I recommend in their price range. But when one becomes an obstacle to little Jennifer getting a piano, I will show them no mercy. You see, the one in the whole scheme of things that matters to me is little Jennifer. Not the teacher, not me, not anyone, other than little Jennifer. Would I prefer that little Jennifer get to own a better piano? Sure. But only John and Jill can determine that one. I can only try to help them find the best piano they can get for the 6K they're willing to spend. And I don't need some self appointed "expert" coming along screwing things up for little Jennifer.

Surely you understand where I'm coming from here. I'm not "tricking the teacher just to make a sale". I'm tricking the teacher to expose her for the ignorant, biased, poor source of information that she is being. If the teacher is giving good information, I have no problem with it, even if they end up buying something somewhere else.

Larry (mainly),

I have to agree the "fallboard transplant tactic" as you fleshed it out above in full context seems quite justifiable. Even if your professed, overriding concern for "Little Jennifer" was also tempered with just a touch of concern for not losing sales, I would still say that applied--AS YOU DESCRIBE--the teachers in question had it coming.

I don't know how common teacher kickbacks are now, but they certainly were pretty standard practice (ok, for SOME!) during the period I was associated with a dealership (and we're talking over a decade ago--have had absolutely nothing to do with the business since about 1990, BTW). I guess I thought then that "everybody" kind of knew about this and it was no big deal (it was also more like $40-$75 a shot, as I remember). And in some defense of the teachers, at least in smaller, 2 or 3 store cities, the instigators tended to be the dealers themselves. This did always seem to have encouraged one or two aggressive types who saw the potential and tried to augment their teaching income with near-extortion on the side--as you described. But I think that was, IS?, truly the occasional bad-apple exception.

I'm wondering, are there any other dealers here who will touch this subject with a ten-foot lid-prop? Is it a big deal, passe, or just business as usual? I mean, many service businesses often customers $50 bucks or so for referrals. Is this on a different level, ethically speaking, because of the inside professional link? Do teachers that post here take great offensive, and think this is a uniformly bad thing?

HH

I have to hand it to you Larry. You tread where very few dare.

I can't even count the amount of times that a piano teacher who thinks that he or she knows more about what is out there than I do, ruins a perfect match of piano to customer.

I must preface this with saying that there are plenty of teachers who know who makes a good piano and who doesn't, and others that trust me and know me well enough that I won't recommend anything but what I feel are the best pianos for what their students are willing to invest, and who are a pleasure to deal with.

But there are plenty of them who are very highly opionated about brand X vs. brand Y, based on something that may have been true 25 years ago. They often turn their noses up to great pianos that they have never heard of and recommend a piano like (insert name of big Japanese piano, golf-cart, motorcycle,and outboard motor company here) over anything, not knowing or caring that they make about seven different levels of quality, in about five different countries and that many of them are among the worst values out there.

And there are others who could care less about what their students buy as long as they are getting paid the most possible for their approval.

It is difficult to bite your tongue at and not say what you really think. Most of us don't want to jeapordize any referrals that come our way and we hope that we can somehow educate these teachers and techs enough or at least get them to be more open minded about what may be unfamiliar to them, or of companies that have dramatically improved what they offer.

Larry typed: "I solved the problem. I fabricated a Kimball fallboard that would sit in the slot of a KG2, and a Kawai fallboard that would sit in the slot of a 5'8" Kimball. When the teacher would start in about how awful the Kimball was, I'd ask her to please give them a chance, "just play this one over here that I have specially prepped". While she was playing the Kawai that said Kimball and telling the parents how awful it was, I'd be telling the parents what was happening. Then I'd ask her to play the Kimball that said Kawai on it. After she'd brag on its rich tone, excellent touch, and tell the parents how much superior it was to the "Kimball" she had just played, many times the folks would then thank the teacher for her time, and after she left, they'd buy the Kimball they wanted."

Those are some nice brass body parts you have there. You are my new best friend.

Regards,

Rick Clark

This type of behavior is disgusting. Even as in Larry's example where they may not be charging the family but still basing their recommendation on a kickback. I'd fire them so fast it would make their head spin. I'd also report them for ethics violations to any employer/school/organization I could.

Some admit it, some don't. From the little bit of experience I have had speaking with teachers I have found most of them to be pretty ignorant of the piano market. Nothing wrong with that if your honest. Some are more honest than others about it.

Moral of the story...weasels come in many flavors. Some can be found teaching music not just selling instruments.

Larry,

Yes, I see where you're coming from now. I thought you were painting with a much wider brush, so to speak.

The blow-hard teacher. . . I KNOW HER. . .SHE HAS BEEN CLONED!

I must admit that before joining this forum, I was totally out of touch with all the new instruments, the stencils, the quality issues and how they are handled from the top to the bottom range. But, I'm the type of guy that you would be able to talk to when I visited your store, because I'm interested - always interested in what's under the hood, and enjoy learning from the expertise of others.

So, I retract my angry post. You have a very good point in the reality of many situations involving "Thuh Teachuh Hass Arrihved. . ." that comes in as the expert, with little to back it up, and a great deal of influence on the family.

Unfortunately the problem isn't limited to teachers. I have had techs and professional players use the same tactics.

Generally not PTG members, however.

I heartily concur that there are many "know it alls" in the piano industry. Performers, technicians and teachers. After "weaseling" or sneaking in a "fake" fallboard I think it would have been best not to tell the parents but take the teacher aside afterwards and show him/her. As much as I agree with the perception that some teachers are "know it alls" it seems there is a little vindictiveness involved here. What good is it to "put down" a teacher in front of their clients while "elevating" yourself?? They can be "put in their place" in a more discreet manner. I understand the need to address bias and predjudice but it doesn't seem to me that a sales person should act unprofessional to prove a point and intentionally expose a person for the fool they really are. Making it possible for a little girl to get a piano is noble but how far does one go??